Therapists Talk Self-Care, Burnout & Balance

Episode Transcription

Sabrina (00:01.824)

Okay, welcome back to Keeping Secrets podcast. Our topic today is self-care as therapists. Generally speaking, think therapists also struggle with self-care and so that is what we'll be discussing today. Yeah.

Julia Baum (00:22.168)

All right, yes. And just to make a note, our intention is to kind of just have like a real conversation around this. It's not to give like a how to about self care. It's just kind of exploring like our own experiences as therapists with self care. And yeah.

Sabrina (00:48.32)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it's really just our own experience and all of that. So, all right. Why don't we get started? I think, you know, one of the first things that comes to my mind when I think of self-care for as therapists is what we were taught in grad school. Yeah. So,

Julia Baum (00:50.345)

I'm sure it'll be relatable.

Sabrina (01:18.956)

I'm just gonna, you know, when I think about what was taught in grad school for me, I remember it being mentioned. And you know what, actually was, it was mentioned, it was discussed a little more than just being mentioned. was, you know, we talked about counter-transference and transference and how it impacts therapy and also what do you do when you're struggling.

with a client issue that might be creating counter-transference as well. So we did discuss that a bit. But my first job out of grad school, I think kind of changed that for me. What about you, Julia? Do you remember how it was discussed for you in grad school?

Julia Baum (02:07.894)

Yeah, I remember self care being incorporated into the ethics course, know, the ethics of counseling. you know, again, like you said, as therapists, our well-being impacts how we work with other people. So

Sabrina (02:34.988)

right.

Julia Baum (02:36.414)

You know, when you think of it that way, it's truly not just about taking care of ourselves. It's about taking responsibility for how we impact our clients and like, you know, are we showing up exhausted, burnt out, know, hung over, whatever it may be. You know, it's not just how you feel.

Sabrina (02:59.351)

Hopefully not.

Julia Baum (03:06.704)

that's going to come across. So it is an ethical consideration and that's how it was kind of you know embedded in the coursework. But yeah of course that's you know a small portion of one class and then otherwise it was it was definitely mentioned. But I think as a student especially at that time I think

myself and all of my friends in the courses were like, this sounds great, but how do you do that when you're, you know, working and going to school and like, you still need to have a life and all that stuff. So it's really hard to actually implement.

Sabrina (03:47.585)

Yeah.

Sabrina (03:53.512)

Yeah, I think my experience was probably more similar to that, what you just described, Julia, because in grad school, for those of you who haven't been through graduate school for therapists, or to become a therapist, you have full coursework, full course load, and then you start doing your internships or externships whatever it is that they call them.

which is just basically your placement where you're actually seeing clients while you're also still going to school. So it does become a little bit more taxing, especially when you start seeing people in person and having to do supervision and on top of that and all of that. And it gets intense. even, yeah, mean, self-care from the perspective of like,

An ethical sort of issue is really important because it affects, you know, our demeanor affects or can affect the way we show up to our, for our clients. And it's really important to manage that.

Julia Baum (04:57.822)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (05:02.546)

Yeah, think, yeah, we have kind of a heavier responsibility than maybe like some other professions. Like, I think this applies to doctors and things like that, but maybe, I don't know, if you just work with like numbers or, you you're not face to face with anyone, you can kind of be like.

Sabrina (05:02.847)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (05:26.497)

I felt like crap today, well. But when you feel like crap in front of your clients, it does make a difference for them.

Sabrina (05:29.15)

Yeah!

Sabrina (05:33.995)

Yeah.

And they can sense it too sometimes. Like when you're really kind of dragging your feet or, you know, maybe you're starting to get sick and you're just trying to like push through it. that, you know, my clients have noticed before when I pushed myself too hard and then it's like, I have to kind of reconsider afterwards, should I have called in sick maybe, you know? So that was a learning curve, especially in the beginning.

Julia Baum (05:40.038)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (05:46.663)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (05:54.102)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (06:02.005)

Yeah.

Sabrina (06:06.07)

for me and still kind of is sometimes, but I think I've gotten better with it. What about you, Julia?

Julia Baum (06:11.956)

Yeah, I mean, that's always a really tough call, like, which is better or worse, you know, whichever way you look at it, like, is it better to show up compromised or is it better to not show up at all? And that's it's kind of hard. I think it also depends on the client, you know, like.

Sabrina (06:15.466)

Yeah.

Sabrina (06:26.482)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (06:35.402)

Yeah

Julia Baum (06:35.975)

And that's a hard judgment call when you have like a day's worth of all different people. it's like, you know, some people are gonna be like, that's fine. See you next week. And then other people will be like, I've been waiting all week for this session. You know? Yeah.

Sabrina (06:42.845)

Yeah.

Sabrina (06:46.271)

Right.

Sabrina (06:50.045)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have, you're absolutely right. Like you have all different levels of, even though, you know, both Julia and I think kind of specialize and we have, generally a, a pretty predictable, like, level of clients that we work with, but they all still have very different presentations and different needs. So, you know, what looks like something that's not

Julia Baum (07:09.059)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (07:19.561)

or that's compromised or what looks like me not being present for one person may not look like that for somebody else. So that's where it gets a little gray. And again, there's gradations of this. Sometimes when I'm at the tail end of a cold or something, I'll still kind of come in because as long as I feel like I can be present and focused, then I'll do it. But if I'm not, I've just learned I think I need to cancel if I'm gonna be.

Julia Baum (07:29.14)

That's also true.

Julia Baum (07:38.637)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (07:49.333)

like really sick.

Julia Baum (07:51.284)

Yeah, and I think another component to that decision making process is like, you know, we are human and part of this work is showing up authentically and yeah, I mean, that's something I kind of struggle with too. Like, you know, if I have a headache or something, like do I want to show up and be like, oh, ah.

Sabrina (07:59.505)

Yeah, good point.

Sabrina (08:10.995)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (08:13.779)

have a headache today, but I'm okay or whatever. don't know, sometimes I do. If I feel like I can be there, but I know like maybe I might look a little off or something, I think sometimes they'll be like, I have a bit of a headache, but I'm here, you know, or something, just so they know if they're like, her eyes look different or something, you know?

Sabrina (08:16.2)

Yeah.

Sabrina (08:26.568)

Yeah.

Sabrina (08:32.146)

Yeah!

Sabrina (08:37.276)

Yeah, I think that's a great way of approaching it is just basically like, yeah, can show up too. It kind of shows, I think, that you've thought about it. You're like, I'm good enough to show up. And also sometimes it's OK if you're feeling a little under the weather, but you can still be there. A headache depends on the severity, though.

Julia Baum (08:47.027)

Mmm.

Julia Baum (08:57.006)

Yes.

Yeah, you have to decide like, I still do the work? yeah, it's interesting because our expectations as therapists for our clients is often like, okay, you have a little cold. Like that doesn't mean we can't meet or you know, you have a headache. You know, it doesn't mean we need to skip the week here. So I look at it that way too. Like every session, you know, it can't be like

Sabrina (09:15.572)

Yeah.

Sabrina (09:21.13)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (09:28.877)

the most profound, wonderful session, although sometimes it ends up being even though you're like, I didn't think that was gonna be so much today, but yeah, anyway, well, and that just, think is, you know, representative of how important just showing up is because you never know what's gonna transpire.

Sabrina (09:35.56)

You're like, yeah.

Sabrina (09:39.913)

Ha!

Sabrina (09:52.946)

Yeah, I mean, that's, I think one of the major things about being a therapist is showing continuity and care. It's a way you show care for your clients, especially those who haven't been shown that a lot in a lot of their previous relationships. Is that, you know, like if I say I'm going to show up at this time and this day I'm going to, and it's consistent, it's there, and I'll be there in the way that you expect. And if I can't...

Julia Baum (10:10.257)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (10:16.914)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (10:22.537)

then I will do my damn desk to let you know, you know?

Julia Baum (10:25.612)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And like, I don't always have to feel wonderful or have that be convenient to me. I'm committed to it. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (10:34.782)

Right.

Sabrina (10:39.857)

Right. But that doesn't come at the expense of your health either. And yeah.

Julia Baum (10:44.645)

Yeah, it's really, yeah, like an interesting process of decision making. Like, yeah, where do you draw the line?

Sabrina (10:50.62)

Yeah.

Sabrina (10:55.466)

Yeah, because it's kind of a parallel process for our clients. You know, they have to decide too if it's worth it for them to cancel if they wake up, you know, and they're, they're coughing a little bit. Okay. And they know they can get through it or they're like vomiting or something. And they're really just not, it's just not possible. Um, anyway, maybe we should, we should probably move on. We have.

Julia Baum (10:59.154)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (11:05.135)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (11:14.202)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes, of course we have digressed, but yes. So yeah, think the main problem with inadequate self-care tends to be burnout.

Sabrina (11:26.07)

That's okay.

Sabrina (11:41.305)

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And it's also, you know what's tough about it is that the people who are getting burnt out or are burnt out sometimes don't even realize it. Even if they're really self-aware, it's sometimes if you're used to pushing through, you essentially are getting used to ignoring your own needs. So.

Julia Baum (11:53.554)

Great.

Julia Baum (11:59.633)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (12:04.623)

Yeah.

Sabrina (12:06.141)

then you're not necessarily gonna be able to know unless you really stop and think about it if you're burnt out.

Julia Baum (12:13.422)

Yeah, and I suppose we're, you know, speaking as therapists, we're talking a lot about art profession, but I'm sure this is true in others as well. Yeah. Yeah. So, wait, were you going to say something?

Sabrina (12:20.53)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I would think so. Yeah.

Sabrina (12:31.08)

no, I think I was just gonna ask you like what your experience has been with Burnout if that's something you want to talk about.

Julia Baum (12:38.802)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I... I have felt burnt out at times, but thankfully, I've resolved it, or it's resolved itself or something. But I think, yeah, burnout for me happens a lot, or a lot. It tends to...

Sabrina (12:57.937)

Yeah.

Sabrina (13:05.446)

Hahaha.

Julia Baum (13:07.569)

I'm susceptible most to it when I'm giving more than I'm replenishing for myself.

Sabrina (13:18.417)

Yeah, that's a great metaphor, I think. Or, yeah.

Julia Baum (13:22.689)

yeah, I think like, you know, it has, there has to be that balance there. Like, you know, even if you're only seeing a small number of people, if you're not like giving back to yourself in some way, you could even get burnt out from that. could, and that could just show up as like a lack of interest or, you know, where you

Sabrina (13:34.472)

Hmm.

Sabrina (13:39.857)

For sure.

Sabrina (13:45.019)

Yep.

Julia Baum (13:48.079)

don't really wanna show up for these sessions or compassion fatigue or things like that. Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, I think one thing that really helps to mitigate that in addition to kind of like refueling is keeping yourself interested in the work somehow.

Sabrina (13:55.479)

Yeah. Were you going to say something else?

Sabrina (14:13.775)

Yeah, I agree.

Julia Baum (14:15.888)

For me, that's been diving deeper into learning different modalities and approaches and philosophies on mental health and well-being. And that just keeps it really interesting for me. Yeah. I can totally relate to that. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (14:25.089)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sabrina (14:33.903)

Yeah, I can totally relate to that. And I wonder if that's something other people in other professions can too. In my case, feel like professional development and continuing education and stuff, it reminds me of why I got interested in this field in the first place. Especially when you're starting to learn new developments or something like that.

Julia Baum (14:54.33)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (15:04.167)

I don't want to say an advanced technique, like another tool for your toolbox, another option that you just didn't think of, or you needed some reminding of. It's just, it's a good moment to like pause and reflect. And that can be a source of replenishing, but yeah. Yeah.

Julia Baum (15:17.302)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (15:23.593)

Definitely, yeah. Like, I have more to give now therapeutically and, yeah.

Sabrina (15:29.657)

Yeah, but even with that, it's a slippery slope sometimes because I feel like if I sign up for too many, like continuing education courses all at once, then I'm like, no, this is too much. I'm going to be really tired on Fridays.

Julia Baum (15:35.759)

Mmmmm

Julia Baum (15:41.56)

I know, everything has got to be in balance. You can't have too much of a good thing. Even too much vacation, you could end up being like, ugh, I don't even want to go back now.

Sabrina (15:45.978)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah

Sabrina (15:57.287)

Yeah, it's like eating too much chocolate cake at a certain point. The sugar just like ruins you. I love chocolate.

Julia Baum (16:00.888)

Mmm. that's a good way to put it. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. I think that is true. Yeah, too much, too, yeah. Too much self care can actually be an unhelpful thing. Yeah. No, I think that's, that's true.

Sabrina (16:20.774)

Yeah, I mean, it's, I feel like so much of our work anyway as therapists too is like figuring out what the best balance is. No matter what you do, like it's, you know, we all, it's kind of give and take, there's dialecticals, you know, there's always too much of this or that. And sometimes it's like three-dimensional and all this other stuff. But at the end of the day,

Julia Baum (16:31.807)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sabrina (16:49.271)

Are you taking care of yourself and can you show up? that's, yeah, we digressing or I'm digressing again. Okay.

Julia Baum (16:57.581)

I mean, it's all related though. I mean, it's cool, like just kind of recognizing these things in real time. Like, it's not like, the more the merrier, you know, like if I was just like in Hawaii getting massages for three weeks, I might, well, I guess at a certain point, maybe it takes longer than three weeks, I don't know. But like at a certain point, you might be like, I've lost touch with.

Sabrina (17:05.252)

Yeah.

Sabrina (17:09.718)

Yeah.

Sabrina (17:15.525)

Sounds kind of nice, but...

No, you're right.

Sabrina (17:27.703)

Yeah, no, that's...

Julia Baum (17:28.0)

my work and my clients and like where were we? You know?

Sabrina (17:34.587)

for sure, that... No, even that would get boring, honestly. It's like, okay, what's next? You I wanna be like... Yeah, just, or you're not stimulated enough, you know, you're just kind of getting bored.

Julia Baum (17:39.308)

Yeah.

It's too self-indulgent. Yeah.

Julia Baum (17:50.539)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, I know you and I have like talked privately to just about experiences with clients like hearing them share about therapists that, you know, were burnt out and, you know, maybe maybe we could speak to that a little bit.

Sabrina (17:53.743)

Yeah.

Sabrina (18:09.901)

Yeah.

Sabrina (18:15.429)

I'm glad you brought that up. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, Julia, but what you're referring to is clients who have come in and sort of told us, both of us have had these experiences, or have heard of, I should say, these experiences that they had like a therapist or a psychiatrist or something that started dozing off in the middle of their session, which is, I mean, awful.

Julia Baum (18:20.45)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (18:38.37)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (18:45.357)

When I was, I just remember once when I was working at a community mental health clinic and we had like this therapeutic model where we would sometimes accompany our clients in to see the psychiatrist. So like the therapist, we were like home-based therapists. We would do home visits and then we would bring them into the office if they needed to see our psychiatrist and we would.

Julia Baum (18:46.188)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (19:05.55)

Mmm... Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (19:12.343)

sometimes sit in on the sessions if they were okay with it or if it was maybe helpful or something. And I did that for one of my clients. On one occasion, the person in question, the psychiatrist that they were meeting with started dozing off in the middle of my client's description of what they were dealing with. And it was jarring to see. I remember just kind of like, literally I was like poking.

Julia Baum (19:34.136)

Mm.

Sabrina (19:41.988)

them to be like, hey, don't, you're dosing off, like stop. It was, no, it was really, it was really bad. that, I mean, that didn't happen all that. That's a pretty egregious thing, but yeah, it was not good. Yeah.

Julia Baum (19:45.224)

wow.

Julia Baum (19:52.013)

Hmm.

Julia Baum (19:59.149)

you actually witnessed it. Mm hmm. Did you talk to the client about it afterwards?

Sabrina (20:09.572)

Yeah, yeah, did. remember this was a long time ago. This was, I was still, you know, after graduate school, therapists need to do like a certain number of supervised hours and I was still doing my supervised hours basically. So was a while ago, but you know, I don't think...

This person in particular was not as tuned in.

Julia Baum (20:42.711)

The client. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (20:43.649)

the client, yeah, for better or for worse. But they definitely noticed. And I did speak to them afterwards. they noticed during too, like when I was just kind of, yeah, poking the psychiatrist. And I just kind of had to say, I'm so sorry that that happened.

Julia Baum (21:00.279)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (21:11.62)

kind of apologizing on their behalf and, you know, kind of sat with them and listened and asked her like how that felt, did not feel good. And the client did lose some trust after that, understandably. And so I think I even like made a request to switch clinicians for them after that. That was a while ago, but it was not, yeah, it was not pleasant.

Julia Baum (21:19.916)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (21:37.896)

huh. Okay. Like they lost trust in the psychiatrist. Okay.

Sabrina (21:44.483)

Yeah, and you know, they were already kind of difficult to not, I don't want to say difficult, but you know, they weren't super trust trusting anyway. So this was not, this is not a good thing. Yeah.

Julia Baum (21:53.109)

Right, yeah that's...

well, yeah, I mean, this just makes me think like so much of this is systemic. Like, you know, this client was working with a community mental health clinic. I'm just assuming they have a history with that sort of care and maybe they've, you know, experienced that in other ways that have contributed to a lack of trust and maybe even like

Sabrina (22:05.163)

Yeah.

Sabrina (22:12.238)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (22:23.789)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (22:26.667)

you know, sort of disconnect or, you know, pulled back because, you know, that would be a natural response after you've experienced something like that. But yet it is systemic because then like, you know, people working in these community mental health clinics, I don't know if people realize are

Sabrina (22:28.034)

Yeah.

Sabrina (22:34.271)

of the above, think.

Julia Baum (22:55.698)

almost always overworked and underpaid for the work they're doing and you know working extremely long difficult demanding high stress hours with very little support and it's and that's you know that's because of a bigger problem where our society doesn't really value mental health and certainly less so with

Sabrina (22:58.817)

Yeah.

Sabrina (23:03.02)

Yeah.

Sabrina (23:08.524)

Very.

Sabrina (23:14.57)

Hmm.

Julia Baum (23:25.522)

underprivileged people and you know it's not funded properly so that therapists or other you know caregivers can afford to work reasonable hours and take care of themselves you know not coming at what

Sabrina (23:28.234)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (23:40.203)

Right?

Sabrina (23:44.128)

Right. And they're always, sorry, they're always like dropping out or quitting, I want to say.

Julia Baum (23:51.133)

Yeah, there's huge turnover rate, which is also not good for clients and trust building. I mean, yeah, there's been so many stories I've heard from clients over the years of just like a therapist disappearing from the clinic, just like, they're gone. can't tell you what happened. Can't tell you where they went. you know, this person that you trusted and you were expecting to see for, you know, ongoing therapy is gone.

Sabrina (23:56.297)

Nope. Yeah.

Sabrina (24:10.951)

Yeah.

Sabrina (24:16.928)

Yep.

Sabrina (24:20.611)

Yeah, and that's like particularly damaging to that population that in a sense is neglected on a systemic level and all the other ways too, if they're in underserved, if they're living in an underserved community, this just like reinforces everything. And there's another layer to it too, which is that, I don't know if you, I don't know if we've talked about this, but.

Julia Baum (24:33.0)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (24:48.64)

I know you and I have outside of the podcast, but that typically in the most sort of under, underserved areas, especially in New York, and I think the rest of the country too, probably, but, they'll hire the least experienced clinicians because we're the ones that are in a sense, a little more desperate to get work because we have to work towards our hours. they know that and.

Julia Baum (25:16.007)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (25:18.486)

To be honest, because it's such a high burnout rate, by the time you get licensed, most people are just like, I'm out of here. Like, I can't work in that environment. It's not the clients even.

Julia Baum (25:29.5)

Right. No. Yeah. That is exactly what my experience was. Like, I loved working with that population. And I just felt crappy about how crappy I felt and how crappy my life was. Because, yeah, the hours and the pay just, like, do not work.

Sabrina (25:34.815)

Yeah.

Sabrina (25:39.755)

Me too.

Sabrina (25:47.701)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (25:57.833)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (25:59.398)

in a sustainable way, you know? like really, I mean, the biggest thing for me is I really love doing therapy. And it doesn't feel good when you're like underperforming from like what your own potential is. It's something you care about. And for me, I I really just wanted to set up a situation for myself where

Sabrina (26:02.313)

No.

Sabrina (26:12.353)

It's awesome.

Sabrina (26:20.564)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (26:28.323)

I could work to my full potential, like be my best version of a therapist and I really, that was like really, I mean I could do that here and there but it wasn't something I could do like all day every day.

Sabrina (26:32.127)

Yeah.

Sabrina (26:39.019)

Yeah.

Sabrina (26:43.33)

No, that wouldn't have been possible.

Sabrina (26:52.807)

No, and we were forced really to do that because that was the, you those were the terms of the job. At least from my perspective or in my situate, I think both of all of the community mental health, like. Yeah.

Julia Baum (27:01.478)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But yeah. And I think like, anytime this sort of conversation comes up, I always like to...

Yeah, like kind of shed light on the circumstances that like, why did that psychiatrist fall asleep? Maybe that was the 12th person they saw in the past six hours and they hadn't had lunch and, you know, they came home at 10 p.m. the night before and didn't have time for dinner. you know, it's just like this whole cascade. And it's like you're.

Sabrina (27:20.373)

Yeah.

Sabrina (27:28.96)

Yeah.

You know?

Sabrina (27:39.655)

And on and on and on, yeah.

Julia Baum (27:44.317)

human and as good of a job as you want to do, eventually your own needs take over. When your body needs sleep that badly, that's really saying something.

Sabrina (27:53.696)

Yeah.

Sabrina (27:59.43)

No, when your body is forcing you to sleep like that, then, you know, it's not a choice. But it's also, at the same time, it also means that you can't really do your job effectively anymore. And in fact, you're probably causing harm at that point.

Julia Baum (28:07.783)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (28:16.431)

Mm-hmm. Right. my gosh. Yeah, this is just like, of course at the end, it's like bringing up so much stuff. But and that's just like, yeah, another kind of systemic dilemma because then I guess, you know, the ethical thing is to leave, but also you still need a job. And I was just like, it's really hard. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (28:20.787)

Yeah.

Sabrina (28:24.905)

Ha ha!

Sabrina (28:30.046)

Yeah.

Sabrina (28:38.097)

and around and around it goes. I mean, I believe, and this is years ago now, but I believe that individual did get pushed out. I don't remember exactly what, cause you know, they don't, don't think it was a bigger organization. They didn't want to be super transparent, but they were no longer there in a couple months, basically, you know, but it was a little bit more of a severe.

Julia Baum (28:50.81)

Okay.

Julia Baum (28:57.901)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sabrina (29:07.644)

issue in that case, but that's not the first time I've heard that happening. It's the only time I've witnessed it. It's not the first time I've seen, I've had clients come in and actually say to me, you know, I feel like my therapist was kind of stifling a yawn, which is okay, that happens. But their eyes, I've also heard so much as like, their eyes kept closing. Like, that person is then actually kind of dozing at that point.

Julia Baum (29:13.723)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (29:19.88)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (29:34.921)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (29:37.168)

And it took them years to come back to therapy after that.

Julia Baum (29:41.798)

Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, I think I just hope for anyone that's ever happened to it's almost definitely not personal. It's almost definitely not because you're boring. And also you don't have to be interesting to your therapist. If they if they're a good therapist, they will be interested.

Sabrina (29:57.499)

Yes.

Sabrina (30:01.872)

It definitely isn't.

Sabrina (30:06.267)

Yeah.

Sabrina (30:10.96)

Yes, exactly.

Julia Baum (30:11.696)

And, or if they're too burnt out to even like connect with you, that's a different issue. But anyway, yeah. And I think, I think more subtle ways that burnout shows up is just the therapist being less involved in the conversation. Just, you know, nodding along and agreeing with things, not, not.

Sabrina (30:17.662)

No, that's a great point, Julia.

Sabrina (30:30.627)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (30:39.614)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (30:39.817)

bringing up anything particularly challenging or introspective or, you know.

Sabrina (30:47.207)

Yeah. Yeah. Like not, you know, not pushing a client, you know, to look at, to really look at what they're, they're saying or doing, right? Like just kind of, I you had said this a while ago, or like outside of this, this episode, but the idea is like, if they're not, they're just kind of yesing, you know, it's just constant like,

Julia Baum (30:57.862)

Right.

Julia Baum (31:10.674)

Yeah.

Sabrina (31:13.584)

everything is right, everything you're doing is great, no, no, no, you're fine. Like it's just, it's like overly supportive in a way that's not actually supportive.

Julia Baum (31:15.976)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just like jumping on the bandwagon like, I can't believe they said that to you. And like, you know, your boss sucks. stuff like that. Yeah.

Sabrina (31:27.293)

Right.

Sabrina (31:31.038)

Right. Without, you know, stopping and saying, wow, what was going on there that, you know, might have happened. Maybe there's more to this story. you know.

Julia Baum (31:37.22)

Alright, right.

Yeah, I think another thing is, you know, it can be very easy as a therapist to like latch on to just kind of like chit chat or gossip or just, you know, because a lot of clients will get into a lot of like interpersonal like

Sabrina (31:56.19)

Small talk? Yeah.

Julia Baum (32:07.119)

And then I said this and then he said that and then I said this and da da da. And like, I think you have to be really with it as a therapist to know like how much of that is relevant and when do you jump in? And when you're burnt out, it's like, it's just entertainment and you can just kind of be like, they said that? What? You know?

Sabrina (32:10.814)

Yeah.

Sabrina (32:22.32)

Yeah.

Sabrina (32:32.906)

Yeah, yeah, there's that's that's more of a gray area gray ish, I want to say, but it it's also really important. I think that now that I'm in private practice, I don't know how you feel, Julia, but I feel like that's the line that if I start noticing I'm doing a little bit of that, that I'm like, maybe I need vacation or maybe I need a couple of days or more sleep or something like. Yeah.

Julia Baum (32:51.975)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. This is too much like getting coffee with a friend and it should not be that way. Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (33:03.824)

Yeah, no, your therapist is not your friend, even though it may feel that way at times, it's different.

Julia Baum (33:11.689)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (33:14.17)

So, yeah.

Julia Baum (33:15.236)

So yeah, mean, and these are all examples that I think I've had in my career. But you have to keep checking in with yourself and where you're at. And yeah, schedule vacations when you need it and all that stuff. I never placed such an importance on sleep until I was a therapist.

Sabrina (33:26.119)

Hmm.

Sabrina (33:34.12)

Totally.

Julia Baum (33:44.422)

anything else I did in my life, I was just like, well, I'm really tired today and like, oh well. And with this, it's like, I cannot function this way. Yeah.

Sabrina (33:57.839)

Yeah, yeah. think in, I can relate to that, but I do feel a little differently. think I'm a little more sensitive to lack of sleep and in that I just, I've not been a great sleeper for a lot of my life in general. But so I've had, you know, just to notice that, but with, you're right though, it's with this job in particular, it's that you have to be present. You have to be on.

Julia Baum (34:19.994)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (34:27.365)

Literally, you're listening for 45 minutes to an hour per person, four to five to seven for some people, know, sessions per day. I mean, it varies widely, but sometimes it is a lot, or it's that many. And if you're not properly fed...

Julia Baum (34:27.493)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (34:47.843)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (34:54.063)

you haven't slept, you haven't done all the basics, then you're not going to get through that, you know?

Julia Baum (34:59.845)

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, because you have to be present. Like, there's so many things that you can do sort of detached or, you know, just going through the motions. OK, like I did the job, whatever, you know. But being a therapist is all about being present. And everything else comes secondarily, you know, like the tools you're using as a therapist and all of that.

Sabrina (35:06.3)

Yeah.

Sabrina (35:11.194)

Yeah.

Sabrina (35:16.485)

Right, right.

Sabrina (35:21.787)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (35:28.385)

it comes second. Like if you are checked out, you're not grabbing the right tools.

Sabrina (35:28.494)

Yeah.

Sabrina (35:32.954)

No.

No, and I do want to mention too that if you've been working like this for a long time, it gets easier. know, it's not like, what I mean by that is that I think probably, I'm guessing probably for both of us, like it's easier to be present in the right ways. and it's easier to know, to recognize patterns because we've seen so many clients now, you know, and that's, that's why experience is so important. So in that regard, it, does take less energy, but it's still.

Julia Baum (35:43.189)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (35:58.595)

Yep, yep.

Sabrina (36:06.19)

It's still more than I think a lot of other maybe professions. I mean, the only thing I can kind of like peace out on is when I'm writing notes or something and because I hate writing notes.

Julia Baum (36:10.062)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (36:17.793)

I'm envious of that. I feel like if I'm like not focused, I just like, I don't know what's write here. But,

Sabrina (36:28.539)

I can get like that too and then I just fall behind, but it's like less energy to write those notes because they're like, yeah.

Julia Baum (36:30.629)

yeah. I get what you mean. You can do that like on the couch and whatever.

Sabrina (36:40.749)

Yeah, yeah, in my sweatpants.

Julia Baum (36:45.207)

Well, we're always like running up against the clock. Like our momentum just gets going and then we gotta stop. But.

Sabrina (36:53.921)

Yeah, totally, but we should wrap this up, for sure.

Julia Baum (36:58.275)

Yep. Yes. Yeah.

Sabrina (37:01.251)

Was there anything you wanted to say before we finish, Julia? Any last thoughts?

Julia Baum (37:05.984)

well, I guess we just kind of explored our own experiences, like, you know, butting up against burnout and also kind of just discussing how we've witnessed it and seen it in our field. And, I think it's, it's a very hard thing to balance. Like we were talking about in the beginning, where do you draw the line between like,

Sabrina (37:16.943)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (37:25.658)

Yeah.

Sabrina (37:32.645)

Right.

Julia Baum (37:35.796)

I cannot be effective and, and the difference between like upholding your commitment by showing up or upholding your commitment by holding back, you know, missing an appointment. it's, it's, it's a delicate act. It's a big responsibility. what, what

Sabrina (37:38.543)

Right.

Sabrina (37:46.638)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (37:52.141)

Yeah!

Yeah.

Sabrina (38:01.399)

Absolutely.

Julia Baum (38:04.408)

What about you? What are your final thoughts?

Sabrina (38:07.712)

I definitely agree with all of that. It's a balancing act for sure. I think one of the things, there's one thing we didn't maybe mention that I'd like to get out there is just kind of like the sense of, it's kind of just ironic a little bit that therapists themselves struggle so much, particularly when we're in training to balance self-care. When...

We are usually the ones that are preaching self-care to our clients. At least I am and a lot of other therapists I know. yeah, I think as a field, it's a place that we could stand to make some improvements. The systemic stuff is harder, but.

Julia Baum (38:56.076)

And I think most of our biggest challenges with that as therapists are because of systemic issues.

Sabrina (39:05.166)

That's a very good point. Yeah, manage healthcare, insurance companies, all that stuff.

Julia Baum (39:12.588)

Yeah. On that note...

Sabrina (39:13.944)

Yeah, anyway. Yeah, we should wrap up. But thank you so much for tuning in and yeah, thanks for listening.

Julia Baum (39:19.636)

Okay, alright.

Julia Baum (39:25.87)

Thanks for listening.

Sabrina (39:27.738)

Bye.