What We’ve Learned About the Human Struggle

Sabrina (00:00.14)

supposed to talk about today. Okay.

Julia Baum (00:01.796)

I remember.

Julia Baum (00:06.486)

All right.

Sabrina (00:08.922)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (00:10.254)

my God, we'll get our giggles out.

Sabrina (00:12.93)

We will, we will.

Julia Baum (00:15.068)

So we had discussed talking about what we've, I think, what we've learned about humanity through working as therapists.

Sabrina (00:28.866)

There's gotta be a different way to say that so it doesn't sound like grandiose, you know? Well...

Julia Baum (00:36.186)

Well, it doesn't mean we have mastered an understanding of all of humanity, but I feel like I've learned a lot through, I mean, just, through like studying how to help people and working with people, like a lot of realizations about...

Sabrina (00:42.638)

Fair.

Sabrina (00:56.855)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (01:03.354)

like a lot of similarities and, you know, commonalities and things like that. I don't know. What about you?

Sabrina (01:06.732)

Yeah.

Sabrina (01:11.566)

I would agree with that. I guess another way to put it would be like what we've learned about sort of like...

Julia Baum (01:14.808)

Okay.

Sabrina (01:26.958)

I'm trying to say this without the word human, but I'm just gonna have to do it. What we've learned about the human struggle, maybe, what just seems, themes and things like that that seem to repeat and that come up a lot for us and for our clients.

Julia Baum (01:36.924)

Hmm.

Julia Baum (01:50.3)

Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, yeah, absolutely. And

Sabrina (01:53.548)

What do you think?

Julia Baum (01:58.786)

I feel like through the experience of everything, know, like it's a combination of working with different people and just through all the reading and training and everything and just how that kind of comes together for me. I just feel like more like.

Sabrina (02:08.299)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (02:26.03)

You

Julia Baum (02:26.242)

like normal than I ever did before any of this. I feel like I have so much in common with everyone I've ever worked with. just like all the case studies you read, not that you relate to every single thing, there's just, yeah, there's so much that I do.

Sabrina (02:33.518)

That's a good thing, I think.

Sabrina (02:42.295)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (02:55.3)

I think like before I ever got into this field, I felt very like...

an outsider or like, you know, I'm just different or whatever. But now my perspective is I think, and I don't just think this about myself. I just think we're all a lot more similar than I ever thought before. I mean, we're unique, but like, we face a lot of the same challenges.

Sabrina (03:07.053)

Yeah.

Sabrina (03:23.352)

Yeah.

Sabrina (03:29.368)

think that as a whole that is absolutely true. And I guess that while you were talking, what it was making me think of is like, I think one of the biggest issues for people when they, one of the many, I want to say, not the only or even the biggest is sort of feeling alone and isolated or lonely, which we could get into the meaning of loneliness as it is like.

written in the dictionary versus what the actual felt experience is, you know? But I think when people are struggling the most or feeling like unique in their struggles or alone in their struggles, I think that that's kind of a sign that they're just like really in it. They're going through, they're in pain. So I wonder if like part of...

Julia Baum (04:02.969)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (04:17.668)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (04:21.798)

your training and becoming a therapist sort of helped you realize how connected we are or just like it worked in a way to help heal you or something. What do you think?

Julia Baum (04:33.22)

Yeah. And I guess I want to clarify what I mean by we're all kind of facing a lot of similar challenges. I don't necessarily mean like on the surface, like the same stuff. But I mean, we all have times where we're afraid, where we feel pain, loss, grief. And it could be about very different things.

Sabrina (04:59.18)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (05:03.11)

But just kind of knowing, like, we all feel these things at different times for different reasons. I think it just is sort of is like a uniting factor. Like, does that make sense?

Sabrina (05:14.862)

Yeah.

Sabrina (05:22.798)

Yeah, let me see if I can kind of summarize or something.

Julia Baum (05:30.918)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (05:34.958)

I guess what you're saying is that, you know, in part through doing this work, you've seen like how ununique we are in our struggles or like, it's not the best way of putting it, but like,

Sabrina (05:52.45)

I don't know, we're just like much more connected and alike than we would like to think, I think. And that we're led to think also in certain groups and communities or societies and things like that. I don't mean to be cheesy or anything, but like we're connected.

Julia Baum (06:01.878)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (06:15.488)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's like we're all, yeah, this also is very cheesy, but like we're all cut from the same cloth or something. I mean, that almost sounds like religious or something, which I don't mean, but just, yeah, from like a very, like in the most basic sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (06:21.858)

slide.

Yeah, yeah.

Sabrina (06:37.484)

Yeah. So I have a question for you then. Since, you know, people listening to this may be curious and, or at least I'm curious to know, was there like a specific moment in your training or moments or what do you think made you start to sort of recognize that in your transition to becoming a therapist or like, was it?

while you were in grad school or was it afterwards? What would you say?

Julia Baum (07:09.688)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just been like building all along the way, like from, you know, when I first started learning about like counseling theory and you would see like the case studies and kind of being able to analyze and so much of it is just relatable. And I mean, it's like a selfish thing as a therapist where you're just like,

Sabrina (07:14.967)

Okay?

Sabrina (07:23.79)

you

Yeah.

Sabrina (07:32.333)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (07:35.84)

Ooh, this person got past that. Like, how did that happen? like, you know, reading through that case study and here's, here's what was applied in therapy and here was the outcome. And you know, it's like really inspiring. So you're like, you know, I don't know things like, like shyness or like being timid or things like that, which has kind of like been a thing for a lot of my life.

Sabrina (07:40.246)

Yeah.

Sabrina (07:49.261)

Yeah

Sabrina (07:59.138)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (08:04.356)

And just like, you know, reading how other people have overcome something like that. And that's like a minor thing, you know, but it sort of plagues you socially. and.

Sabrina (08:15.18)

Yeah, I would say that's not necessarily that minor.

Julia Baum (08:18.796)

Yeah. And then just kind of, you know, learning, okay, this was a person's thought process that was leading them to kind of like withdraw and stuff. it's like, you can relate to those thoughts and. Yeah, that's like one example, but it comes out all the time. mean, pretty much every, every day, would assume with my clients, you know, they're feeling something or thinking something that I've thought.

Sabrina (08:40.788)

every day. Nice.

Julia Baum (08:48.348)

myself or they, you know, they have a decision to make and I've been at those same crossroads and had the same like doubts and what ifs and you know, yeah. Uh huh.

Sabrina (08:49.858)

Yeah.

Sabrina (08:58.606)

That worries. Just can you, Julia, can you maybe just explain briefly what a case study is for people that might not know? Yeah.

Julia Baum (09:09.906)

that's a good idea. That's a good idea. So a case study is something presented usually during like therapy training. And it's basically like a non-identifying description of a client and what they're coming in with, like what their concerns are, what

Sabrina (09:24.558)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (09:39.002)

what they're trying to work on. And then it kind of lays out how the therapist proceeded to address that with them, how the client responded, kind of usually talks about some sort of treatment plan, like goals that the therapist and the client set together, and then how that client did with reaching those goals and like.

Sabrina (09:41.688)

Right.

Sabrina (09:56.877)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (10:05.2)

You know, what the client did on their end, what the therapist did on their end and just sort of lays it out.

Sabrina (10:13.42)

Yeah, and you know what, I remember case studies being like my favorite part of grad school, honestly, it was, you know, and that's not surprising if you want to become a therapist, that's going to be kind of the meat and the bones in a way. But I think what I loved so much about case studies back then is sort of the story component of it, you know, not, and not just like also what you're saying, which is that like,

Julia Baum (10:18.538)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Sabrina (10:40.876)

These are very human stories that we can all really just relate to on a personal, individual basis. Always relatable, even if we've never gone through the exact same thing. It's very, it's easy in a way to kind of try to imagine what it might be like based on some other similar-ish experience that you might've had. And it does remind you that like, you know, the things that we're going to be seeing as therapists,

Julia Baum (10:59.0)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (11:10.606)

Like back then before we were professionals, like.

Sabrina (11:17.45)

Yeah, it just kind of normalizes what people go through in life. Like whether it's a divorce or a breakup or a job change or a career shift or, you know, a family member passing, like these are things that are kind of inevitable sometimes, most times, and that doesn't make them easy ever. You know, but it's like inescapable. We all have to go through them sometimes. So.

Julia Baum (11:42.492)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (11:48.772)

Yeah, definitely.

Sabrina (11:49.12)

Yeah, but the story aspect of it too is just kind of seeing the evolution of like, okay, this person comes in with this issue. This is how they're presenting it. This is how they've sort of made sense of it in their mind. And then you as the therapist kind of trying to pick from the theories and the techniques and things like that and how you're going to interpret it and try to figure things out with them. But I like what you said about like,

Julia Baum (12:07.278)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (12:17.816)

how what the therapist does and then what the client does on their end too to kind of work towards a resolution of it.

Julia Baum (12:25.636)

Mm Yeah. And these case studies are things that we would read in books or like seeing videos, but also that we would create based on our own internships and things like that. And then like present to our classmates with like a professor kind of fielding the conversation around it. Yeah.

Sabrina (12:35.736)

Yeah.

Sabrina (12:43.704)

Yes. Those were fun.

Sabrina (12:51.33)

Yeah, that part was, you know, scary or a little intimidating, but also super, so, so good for your, for your learning, you know?

Julia Baum (12:56.216)

huh. huh.

Julia Baum (13:02.084)

Yeah, it helps you kind of understand it better yourself when you realize you need to explain it to someone else and have it make sense.

Sabrina (13:08.429)

Yeah.

Sabrina (13:13.376)

Yeah, it really does.

Julia Baum (13:14.998)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sabrina (13:17.484)

Yeah, case studies were great.

Julia Baum (13:21.07)

Yeah. So yeah, mean, what about you? Like, I guess, what do you feel like you have a better understanding of about people, like, as a whole based on your experiences?

Sabrina (13:21.45)

Anyway.

Sabrina (13:36.866)

Yeah.

Sabrina (13:42.51)

I mean, the first thing that jumped into my mind was very similar to what you just said, which is that like, by we, feel like humans in general all kind of struggle with very similar fears at the core of it. Of course there are exceptions and there's like eight billion people on the planet, so they're gonna be.

quite a few exceptions if you think about it from that perspective. And I've seen some, honestly, but in general, like at the core, I think people really just have a need emotionally to feel accepted and loved and cared for. And what that looks like for people may differ slightly, but it really has the same basic ingredients if you think about it. You know, and I...

Julia Baum (14:33.018)

Hmm... Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (14:37.012)

It's interesting to me like the way in which different people will go about or how they'll respond when they're put in situations that they're that wasn't that weren't expected or that, you know, when they're going through a hardship, it's you know, whether they're going to self-sabotage or they're going to lash out and sabotage someone else or like, I don't know, just so many

there are variations on that theme, but I think one of the, I guess as an aside to that, I want to say there are so many patterns that emerge. There are a lot of really common patterns, I think, that people tend to engage with that I would not have known had I not, you know, started studying psychology, mental health, and mental health counseling and all of that. Like,

there really are some very telling patterns that will point me in the direction of like, this person probably feels like the responsible one in their family and ends up kind of extending that dynamic into their friend group and their relationship and even sometimes at work and stuff like that. that's just like a random example, but yeah, I really don't know that I would have figured.

Julia Baum (15:45.509)

Okay.

Julia Baum (15:55.58)

Mmm.

Sabrina (16:03.394)

I don't think I would have figured that out without being in this field.

Julia Baum (16:07.44)

Like what kind of patterns can you give as a concrete example?

Sabrina (16:13.814)

Yeah, guess, so another, like, you know, the person that plays a certain role in their family system, for example.

families in general tend to function as systems. And so when we're growing up, based on your temperament, your individual temperament, and then just sort of the structure of the adults in charge at the time or adult in charge, people will start to sort of fall into certain roles. And so your siblings, maybe if you have siblings, will start to know you as

you know, the one that's loud or quiet or, you know, has this sensitivity so they can get away with that. it's, you know, or you're the kind of person that, you know, is gonna, in order to fix something is going to be boisterous or something. Like, I don't know, I'm not explaining it super well, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like, when I think of patterns,

you know, it does take me back to the family system and just sort of what, how an individual person's interaction with their caregivers growing up, their, you know, even in early adulthood and all that. It just kind of...

These are patterns that I remember reading in case studies, first of all. And then also, as I got more into and decided to sort of specialize more in trauma-focused therapy, particularly like developmental trauma, there's very specific patterns of like neglect and emotional sort of...

Julia Baum (17:46.979)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (18:11.34)

I'm trying not to use a supercharged word, but abuse, basically, that tends to produce certain behaviors in people. And they tend to fall on a continuum. And I just see it over and over and over. And I guess what I'm trying to say is like, this is a really long-winded way of saying, OK, here's a good example.

Julia Baum (18:15.493)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (18:32.998)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (18:37.038)

People tend to repeat in their romantic relationships what feels or is essentially unresolved for them. know, wounds and patterns and issues that they struggled with or that they didn't get or they got too much growing up. So they'll tend to pick partners if they were raised by a parent or caregiver that was cold and

Julia Baum (18:47.044)

Mmm.

Julia Baum (18:56.528)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (19:06.926)

sort of not super present and like, you know, very critical. They'll tend to repeat that with their, in their romantic relationships. I see it all the time. That's, mean, it's not surprising, but it's, I guess when you're in, when you're the therapist and you're seeing it so repetitively over and over, it's like, this.

Julia Baum (19:13.957)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (19:21.722)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sabrina (19:36.874)

again.

Julia Baum (19:37.242)

Well, yeah, I think that's exactly it. Like having that insight, even to see like, okay, these case studies that we read, you know, a decade plus ago, and a lot of times they're in books that are from like several decades before that. And it's like, you're seeing those same patterns and dynamics play out now. It's like, you realize the consistency and like,

Sabrina (19:51.436)

Yeah.

Sabrina (19:56.471)

Yeah

Sabrina (20:06.56)

Huh.

Julia Baum (20:06.918)

how it's almost like, you very normal, almost expected response, whereas from the outside, and if you haven't really had this journey that we've had, you would be like, this is so absurd. They, you know, hated this their whole life. And then now they're diving into more of it. Like, why would they do that? you know, it's like very hard to understand, I think.

Sabrina (20:12.397)

Right.

Sabrina (20:22.988)

Right? Right.

Sabrina (20:32.396)

Right. Yeah.

Julia Baum (20:36.016)

I think that's part of what I really like about like, it's a secondary benefit of being a therapist is just being like, no, I get that. Like that does actually make sense instead of being so baffled by people's behavior.

Sabrina (20:44.494)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sabrina (20:51.318)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's a huge secondary benefit when you can kind of, like you said, you have all this added insight because of it. That doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to do any better because of that. In our own lives, yeah. And honestly, no, I mean, I've worked with other therapists as well and like, and in my own life too. Like we don't always have it together at all. But it's fascinating.

Julia Baum (21:04.091)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (21:08.653)

like in our own lives?

Sabrina (21:23.714)

that even with, okay, so I'll say something that might lead us into a different direction. I don't know, but even with all the insight in the world, it's not enough sometimes. Insight in and of itself is not enough. It's a privilege and a benefit, but yeah.

Julia Baum (21:35.035)

Yeah.

I agree.

Yeah, and that's actually, what's the word I'm looking for? Sort of like a divisive opinion in the therapy world, actually. But you and I are in the same camp. But yeah, there are certain therapies that say insight enough is alone. You know what I'm trying say. Insight alone is enough. And then, you know, there's that idea that

Sabrina (21:52.886)

Yeah. Yeah. We are.

Sabrina (22:03.884)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's all that's needed.

Julia Baum (22:11.132)

it's necessary but not sufficient. And then, yeah, like on the super behavioral side, they might say insight is not necessary to make changes. yeah, I think we're like in the middle there where it's really helpful, but it's not going to get you all the way. You got to like make some actual changes.

Sabrina (22:15.672)

Right? Yeah, they're different.

Sabrina (22:24.813)

Yeah.

Sabrina (22:36.525)

Yeah.

Sabrina (22:40.588)

Yeah, think we're exactly, yeah, that's what I would say too. That's sort of where I sit in that continuum. Yeah.

Julia Baum (22:42.127)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (22:45.944)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, but right. mean, I think we are at an advantage in our personal lives, because at least we have that background of... I mean, I think a lot of what holds people back is self-judgment and feeling that there is something wrong with them for...

Sabrina (22:56.066)

Yeah.

Sabrina (23:06.722)

Yeah, that's a huge one. I'm so glad you're bringing that up.

Julia Baum (23:14.832)

the way they feel. And so, like, rather than, like, addressing that feeling, they're just sort of stuck in the shame of something is wrong with me.

Sabrina (23:15.276)

Hmm.

Yeah

Sabrina (23:26.541)

Yeah.

It's almost like no matter what, like if something goes wrong in your life and then it really sucks and it's like, whatever it is and whatever role you played, it's hard. And then you've got this added layer on top of it. It's like a secondary layer that just kind of keeps you stuck and keeps you from even actually dealing with or facing up.

Julia Baum (23:43.376)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Julia Baum (23:53.147)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (23:54.518)

and going through the emotions of like whatever it is, whether it's grief or shame or guilt or whatever that, you know, and I feel like I've read various like interpretations or ways to conceptualize that, but I always think of it as like that added layer that's just like, it's sitting right on top of the meat of things, but almost everybody goes through it. It's that judgment, that self.

Julia Baum (23:59.449)

Exactly.

Julia Baum (24:18.624)

Yeah.

Sabrina (24:22.914)

Like from a parts perspective, it's that part of you that's like really critical and just saying, I should not feel this way. I should not have responded that way.

Julia Baum (24:30.62)

Mm hmm. Right. Right. And then you're stuck in that instead of, okay, well, now that I did respond that way, what do I want to do next? Or, you know, whatever. But yeah, I think I think a lot of different approaches kind of might explain it a little differently. But yeah, it's like it is that other layer of

Sabrina (24:43.818)

Exactly. Yeah.

Sabrina (24:55.352)

sure.

Julia Baum (25:00.388)

It's a block. And I think that's kind of maybe one of the advantages like in our own personal lives that we may have is at least being able to normalize. You know, there's nothing wrong with me if we're feeling this way about this situation. Like it's a natural emotion. I don't need to judge myself for it.

Sabrina (25:03.074)

Yeah.

Sabrina (25:08.845)

Yeah.

Sabrina (25:19.544)

Yeah.

Sabrina (25:25.152)

Yeah, and if it is, if it does seem to be a little out of proportion, like in the case that it might be a little bit out of proportion for some people, that's not necessarily a reason to be ashamed. It's just a, it's the better, you know, not better, but like a more constructive or what about the idea of just like, how come this is, this feels so big, you know, what's going on, you know?

Julia Baum (25:37.244)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (25:49.006)

Yeah. I mean, you can learn a lot about yourself that way. Like if you can just take the judgment away. And I think, yeah, it's like, sorry, I'm a little distracted because I'm putting honey in my tea right now. I like set this little station up next to myself. I don't normally do this here. Well, I'm just, it's almost ready. Okay.

Sabrina (25:54.626)

being curious. Yeah.

Sabrina (26:03.246)

That sounds really nice.

Sabrina (26:10.376)

That's awesome. I would love to see.

Sounds so nice.

Julia Baum (26:18.588)

what was I saying? I think the, the practice of just being with people and choosing not to judge them for whatever they're thinking or feeling or going through, it sort of like rubs off on, on yourself because you're like, well, why would I judge me? And

Sabrina (26:26.339)

Yeah.

Sabrina (26:37.11)

Yeah.

It does, actually.

Julia Baum (26:42.332)

Yeah, and that's actually, think, like a really helpful tool in therapy. I mean, I don't know if you do this, but like a lot of times, you you might ask someone like, what would you say to a friend going through this? you know, would you say these things you're saying about yourself to the friend or like, would you think those things? And it's almost always no. And then it's like, what's, you know, you're

Sabrina (26:56.15)

Yeah, I use that too. Yeah.

Sabrina (27:02.124)

Yeah.

Yeah. Totally.

Julia Baum (27:10.396)

You're a person too. What's the difference? Okay, my tea is ready.

Sabrina (27:12.504)

Yeah, exactly. Why not extend? I love that cup. Are those two cats? So cute on a rooftop. amazing.

Julia Baum (27:18.844)

Yeah, guess my focus keeps going to like how I've benefited from all of this, but yeah.

Sabrina (27:35.982)

Well, I also think, you know, and I remember in grad school too, there were those of us who were the most, I think honest for our reasoning for becoming therapists. It's some of it is selfish. Like, what can we say? Like it's, you know, a lot of it is like, well, how come if you're struggling so much, how amazing would it be to figure out how to help or figure that out or get through it and then help other people?

Julia Baum (27:51.471)

I know.

Sabrina (28:05.976)

to be able to kind of just spread the wealth sort of thing, right? It creates meaning in your life. You benefit from it, other people benefit from it. It's a win-win, but yeah, there's a selfish component. Yeah.

Julia Baum (28:09.658)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (28:16.444)

100%. For sure. mean, like, we all have that sense of, like, you know, at times feeling like lost and confused. And yeah, it's like, there's a part of us that wants to feel less of that. And by learning so much about how the mind works and

Sabrina (28:28.014)

It's human.

Sabrina (28:34.104)

Totally.

Julia Baum (28:39.386)

You know, just, yeah, these common patterns and things like that, you do feel a little less confused about people.

Sabrina (28:39.478)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (28:48.492)

And I also want to say less anxious too, like less stressed. For those of us who do struggle with anxiety, which I used to struggle with a ton and still do sometimes, much, much better now. It really is anxiety inducing when you can't make sense of things. And sometimes the desire to make sense of things is really just sort of too, it's...

Julia Baum (28:51.812)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (29:11.1)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (29:17.294)

it's driven by anxiety. It's like, oh my God, if I can make sense of this, then I can figure it out and then it'll be okay. You know, that's like the anxious loophole that tends to get people stuck. but like, yeah, just generally speaking, think understanding that like, let's take something that, you know, you can't really, you don't have much control over like grief, right? If.

Julia Baum (29:21.34)

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Baum (29:43.901)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (29:44.77)

You lose somebody or a pet or a person or a job or anything that you just don't have much control over, let's say. You don't have any control over it if somebody else is going to pass away or not. You know, there is no choice in terms of like what to do next. There's nothing you can do to change the outcome. The only thing left for you to do is work with how you adapt to it.

Julia Baum (29:53.308)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (30:13.966)

to that new reality. And part of that is like tending to your emotions, accepting the new reality, which is a task in and of itself and all of that. And that, you know, from like the insight perspective, insight can be helpful there, but it's not gonna get you all the way through, I feel. Sometimes it's just like, what does it mean to really just go through it?

Julia Baum (30:15.75)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (30:43.918)

and tolerate those feelings and know that like you can go through some heavy stuff and still be okay.

Julia Baum (30:44.112)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (30:53.86)

Yeah, and I think that's where it's really helpful to be able to accept your feelings without judgment. know, yeah, if you're like, you know, I haven't been productive, you know, I've just been crying all day, you know, like, what's wrong with me? And

Sabrina (31:02.509)

Yeah.

Totally.

Sabrina (31:14.318)

I

Julia Baum (31:17.09)

then it makes all those other tasks that you just described a lot harder and maybe like further away.

Sabrina (31:24.428)

Yeah. Yeah, it almost distracts you from them. And sometimes I wonder if it is a way to distract from like getting into it. But regardless, it just adds another complicating layer.

Julia Baum (31:28.964)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (31:33.754)

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Julia Baum (31:40.54)

Mm Well, yeah, I mean, that's a that's always an interesting question to explore. That's that's like a very existential question. Like, what are you choosing? You know, what are you avoiding? Yeah.

Sabrina (31:46.54)

Yeah.

yeah,

Yeah, I didn't think of it from the existential perspective, but that makes sense, though.

Julia Baum (31:59.206)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (32:02.026)

Yeah, I'm thinking of it from like a parts perspective where like there's a part of you that's coming in to like rescue you from dealing with the harder stuff. But like, or there could be for instance, let's see. Let's go in and figure that out. But yeah, makes sense from that. So cool different ways of looking at things.

Julia Baum (32:10.34)

Mmm... Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Uh-huh.

Julia Baum (32:18.149)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (32:22.126)

I know, yeah, it is really interesting how, like there will be different language to kind of explain this phenomenon or, you know, it's interesting.

Sabrina (32:28.385)

Yeah.

Sabrina (32:32.65)

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's also something interesting about the counseling field in general too, is like the different modalities. And I'm trying to think of how to describe what that means. I guess, and please jump in if there's an easier way to describe this, basically we all kind of gravitate as therapists towards different theoretical approaches to our work.

Julia Baum (32:43.205)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (33:02.586)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (33:02.902)

And so these serve as like kind of blueprints roughly to how we tend to view things. And some of us will kind of combine a lot of different ones and others will maybe gravitate more towards one or two than others. But like Julia, for instance, you gravitate towards the existential kind of perspective with a little bit of like the CBT or maybe cognitive stuff. Is that right?

Julia Baum (33:27.832)

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they go hand in hand in a lot of ways, because CBT is basically saying you have control over your thoughts, and how you know, your, your feelings are sort of constructed through

Sabrina (33:37.11)

Okay.

Sabrina (33:44.118)

Mmm.

Julia Baum (33:49.852)

the choices you make in your thinking. you know, existentialism is all about like freedom and choice and responsibility. So it goes, it goes really well together.

Sabrina (33:59.662)

yeah. It's funny, I never really put those two together because I didn't, I was always interested in CBT but never really enough to focus on it from that perspective. that just kind of makes certain things click a little bit more for me now, thinking about it from that perspective. I like that. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I guess it's.

Julia Baum (34:13.712)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (34:22.404)

Good.

Sabrina (34:27.968)

I love the idea of parts work. mean, this is something that's a little bit more recent for me. And it again comes from sort of the trauma perspective ish, but parts work is used in so many, like, you know, it's used in so many different treatments, modalities, ways. The stuff that I usually fall back on is like internal family systems, which was created by Richard Schwartz.

Julia Baum (34:51.535)

Okay.

Sabrina (34:55.574)

which some people may be familiar with, but it's just really fascinating because it's literally kind of the idea is that you have, every person has sort of an internalized family of parts, different parts of them that act different ways, come out in different situations and settings and react certain ways. And so a lot of them will fall under, they all generally fall under certain categories, but most of them are like just trying to protect you from something.

Julia Baum (35:10.768)

Mmm.

Julia Baum (35:25.007)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (35:25.194)

essentially and there's like the vulnerable they're really trying to protect like the most vulnerable younger youngest parts usually and it yeah

Julia Baum (35:32.004)

Hmm. This is interesting. I actually don't know anything about parts work. No.

Sabrina (35:37.9)

Really? I mean, yeah, I mean, before IFS, think the only thing I knew was like, you know, the Gestalt, image of like Gestalt, like put somebody in a chair kind of thing. You know, the chair work, is, that was it. I didn't, I don't, I still don't know how to do that properly. I've not been trained in that, but IFS is more, I don't know, it just, it goes well with EMDR. That's why I started picking it up and learning more about it.

Julia Baum (35:50.68)

Okay. okay. Got it.

Julia Baum (35:59.086)

Okay.

Sabrina (36:06.35)

You might be interested in it. It's just it's very cool. It's just like One of the reasons that I really like it to be honest is that it helps kind of disperse the responsibility for your feelings Like if you're feeling something really really strong You know people can people tend to get like very wrapped up and feel like they're stuck but if you remember try to

Julia Baum (36:18.32)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (36:31.256)

Remember that there's actually, it's just a part of you that's feeling that. It may be really strong right now, but it doesn't mean that it's permanent. And if there's a part of you that's feeling this way, there may be other parts that aren't, or that are feeling different ways, or have different ways to approach it. so, that way it's less pathologizing. It's just a really, I think, beautiful way of working with people. I don't know.

Julia Baum (36:38.65)

Yup.

Julia Baum (36:52.687)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (36:56.965)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (37:01.05)

Yeah, it's interesting because again, like that concept comes up in CBT and REBT. It's just like different language, different words.

Sabrina (37:09.262)

How?

How does it come up in RABT like that idea?

Julia Baum (37:15.516)

Mm Well, it's always explained within the process of therapy that we're we're all capable of thinking various things about the same situation. So in that way, it's really similar, like you can have multiple perspectives going on at the same time or at different times, but we're we're capable of that. And

Sabrina (37:31.34)

Yeah, that is similar. Yeah.

Sabrina (37:40.717)

Yeah.

Sabrina (37:44.109)

Right.

Julia Baum (37:44.602)

Yeah, and so CBT will kind of use that as a way of saying, well, you know, let's look at these different thoughts and like, which ones are helpful to what you're trying to achieve and which ones are holding you back. you know, so it's like acknowledging these all exist and that's normal. And, you know, we're just going to look at them and kind of see.

Sabrina (37:52.855)

Yeah.

Sabrina (38:00.759)

Yeah.

Sabrina (38:05.603)

Right.

Julia Baum (38:13.18)

what works for you, things that may have worked in the past but aren't working anymore. So it's like that same idea of these are all in you and you can choose how to navigate them.

Sabrina (38:16.044)

Yeah.

Sabrina (38:20.375)

Yeah.

Sabrina (38:26.252)

Yeah, it is actually.

Sabrina (38:31.448)

I love that. you know, I wish other therapists, I feel like in our field too, there's sort of like a tendency to get stuck in the different camps of perspectives, like modalities basically, like, you know, the biggest like rift I think in the, amongst therapists is like psychodynamic versus CBT, I feel like, and then like some of the experiential stuff. But really like,

Julia Baum (38:41.338)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (38:50.299)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (38:57.497)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (39:00.13)

The goals are the same, essentially. It's just different ways to get there. You know? And that just, yeah. No, no, no, go ahead.

Julia Baum (39:05.892)

Yeah, a lot of times, sorry. A lot of times I think about these modalities or like frameworks or like you said, like the architecture or whatever. I think about it in terms of like religion. Like, there's so many religions that like in the the highest sense have the same mission. But

Sabrina (39:22.126)

Mmm. Yeah.

Julia Baum (39:35.854)

like the way to get there and the way to talk about it is just really different. And not, I think, yeah, like not every religion is that way, but I think a large majority of religions all kind of like, kind of want to lead people in similar direction. It's just like, you know.

Sabrina (39:36.014)

Hmm.

Sabrina (39:58.679)

Yeah.

It's, yeah, I think religion in general, I, you know, for people who are religious, that's, I mean, I'm not religious personally, maybe a bit spiritual, and Julia, I think you're not as well, right? But I think what I've noticed is that it really provides a framework for people to sort of like live by, and, you know, it gives you,

Julia Baum (40:24.646)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (40:29.834)

Like again, that framework of like when you're struggling with someone, let's consult the priest or the imam or the rabbi or something like there are your sort of teachers or your consultants and then there's the Bible or the book or whatever and they're general constructs like there, it's a blueprint, I think. And that can...

Julia Baum (40:38.352)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (40:48.508)

you

Julia Baum (40:55.174)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (40:57.77)

It can lead to polarization when it's, you know, taken the wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And I've seen that in, I know this sounds, this may sound wild to some people, but it's probably not to therapists. A lot of therapists get really stuck in their own schools of thought and really feel like, no, this is the only way and this is the best way. And this is, you know, I've got it all figured out. And it's like,

Julia Baum (41:03.514)

Yeah, like when you get stuck in the weeds of it.

Julia Baum (41:23.932)

you

Sabrina (41:28.002)

Well, no, maybe an existential framework is better for that person versus this one, you know?

Julia Baum (41:28.161)

Yeah, definitely.

huh. Yeah. And I do think, yeah, it's just kind of like, like a structure to see something through and, and like, understand through a certain lens. A lot like religion, like, you know, religion helps people to identify like, you know, when you're

Sabrina (41:44.61)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (41:59.12)

breaking some kind of moral code or something, because it lays it out and different therapy structures have like keystones where you can kind of recognize, this falls into this pattern or, and just make sense of it like a language or something.

Sabrina (42:03.041)

in a

Sabrina (42:12.727)

Yeah.

Sabrina (42:19.97)

think that's the best way of putting it. They're like languages. And we're all essentially trying to communicate very similar things. And most of the time have these same goals in mind, but just very different ways of getting there or various.

Julia Baum (42:23.245)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (42:36.718)

Yeah. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes really different. Yeah, like if you compare like, like a somatic therapy to, I don't know what else. I don't know what would be like the polar opposite, like a psycho, psychoanalysis or something. I don't know. I don't know, but yeah, the avenues to get there are totally different, but.

Sabrina (42:46.658)

Yeah.

Sabrina (42:50.358)

I can eat.

Sabrina (42:55.476)

I think maybe psychoanalysis or what? Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (43:04.183)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (43:04.91)

I know, think we're all sort of like, tend to wanna like judge and otherize things. Like even I do that, like, so much of CBT is sort of like going against like Freud's initial theories and stuff, yeah. And so it's always been sort of the thing for me, like, ugh, Freud.

Sabrina (43:12.782)

Hmm.

Yeah, me too.

Sabrina (43:27.052)

It was a reaction. Yeah.

Julia Baum (43:35.098)

But the deeper I go into reading about different philosophies and things that I really admire, I see they've been inspired by Freud. And then I'm like, wait, they didn't hate Freud? Does that mean I don't need to hate him?

Sabrina (43:53.198)

Yeah.

my God, that makes me think of something. That's such a funny thing that you mentioned. just, remember when I, like years ago when I first went for my first like basic EMDR training and I, you know, was meeting new therapists in New York, like just before the pandemic, I think. I remember just like talking to somebody about what we, we were on a break from the, was like a day, like several day long training, kind of intensive training.

Julia Baum (44:09.38)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (44:29.346)

We were taking, we were on like a 15, 20 minute break or something. And somehow the subject of Freud came up, you know, and this person just kind of mentioned, well, you know, cause Freud's kind of irrelevant now. And I remember thinking like, yeah, it's been, you know, like a hundred years, if not more. And I don't know how long it's been, but it's been a while since, you know, he kind of.

Julia Baum (44:36.401)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (44:55.068)

Hmm.

Sabrina (44:58.028)

revolutionized therapy and came onto the field and he was problematic in a lot of ways. But the foundations of it really, like you can't get away from, you can't entirely get away from it. I hate to say it because I also don't subscribe to Freud myself, but like, you know, he was a genius and he wasn't the only one. That's the thing too. There were all these other people around him that

Julia Baum (45:13.464)

Mm-hmm. Right, right.

Sabrina (45:27.982)

People don't know much about either, especially in the trauma field. He wasn't even like, I don't know, the top dog or something. was like Breuer and some other people. I don't know. I'm gonna mess up the history of it. yeah, that's really what I wanted to say. Yeah.

Julia Baum (45:38.365)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (45:45.084)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (45:50.83)

Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, even the fact that there's therapies that are very contemporary that were sort of in reaction to Freud is still saying something about how influential his work still is. Yeah.

Sabrina (46:06.86)

Yeah, that's a very good point. It says a lot actually.

Julia Baum (46:14.982)

But yeah, it's, I guess, and that's kind of tying back again to, you can have like multiple perspectives on the same thing. that even like Freud who maybe like contaminated the waters in a lot of ways also like contributed things that have helped like, you know, people and you know, yeah.

Sabrina (46:25.462)

Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (46:35.885)

Yep.

Sabrina (46:41.326)

100%. Yeah. Yeah, it's, things are so much more complicated. I think that's one other thing I've learned from being a therapist, honestly. Maybe it's something I already kind of believed anyway, but not until I got into this field, things are often much more, you know, it's both. It's like, they can be like a lot more complicated and also sometimes just really simple, like.

Julia Baum (46:51.675)

Hmm.

Julia Baum (47:10.673)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (47:11.852)

always to expect the unexpected and be surprised. And I love being surprised sometimes, also like, you know, I'll get a new client or something. And then I ask about some version of their history and it's like, I never would have expected that kind of thing. And then it puts all these other things into context. it's like, so they were struggling with that, but it actually wasn't because of the parent back in.

Julia Baum (47:14.726)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (47:29.147)

Mmm.

Julia Baum (47:33.084)

Mmm.

Sabrina (47:39.982)

18 or 1986 or something, you

Julia Baum (47:42.202)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's true. And that's like a skill to recognize when something is complicated or is it just like a simple kind of thing. Like I'm thinking like, you know, Freud is really known for, you know, obviously, like psychoanalyzing and like making a big deal out of everything. but like, there's also this quote by him that's like,

Sabrina (47:55.298)

Yeah.

Sabrina (48:06.496)

Yes.

Julia Baum (48:10.904)

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And you don't need to like assume everything has its whole deeper thing to it.

Sabrina (48:14.604)

Right. Yeah.

Sabrina (48:24.192)

Yeah, and it's fascinating that the one that like basically created like overanalyzing, which is actually really like not super healthy for people with a lot of anxiety to overanalyze everything in general. Yeah, it's like they already do that naturally. But he created that and then like, I think just from the experience of

Julia Baum (48:27.43)

Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (48:32.282)

Yeah.

Julia Baum (48:38.052)

That's true. my gosh. Definitely. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (48:51.278)

working with it realized like, and there are going to be times when it just really none of this is the case. Like it's just what it looks like. That's it. Yeah. Very anticlimactic.

Julia Baum (48:56.38)

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Right. Like, what you see is what you get. Yeah. So, all right. So how do we summarize? What have we done here? I mean, I feel like the theme here is like...

Sabrina (49:04.577)

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (49:09.07)

That's a good point.

What we usually do.

Julia Baum (49:23.022)

Yeah, we see a lot of similarities in, in like our studies and our experience. And then even I think like something we got to unintentionally was maybe even as therapists and the way we work has more in common than we often realize.

Sabrina (49:39.341)

Yeah.

Sabrina (49:43.832)

Or even care to admit. Really? Like... No, I'm not like Freud. Nothing like him.

Julia Baum (49:45.252)

I know for some reason I feel kind of uncomfortable saying that like I want to be like, no. Yeah. yeah, it's interesting. I don't know. What about you?

Sabrina (50:01.87)

I think you summed it up perfectly. mean, I don't know. Yeah, I know we went a little all over the place, but I'm kind of glad that we talked about all the different elements of this. And probably on a different day, we would have different things to say, but.

Yeah, I guess the main thing that at least I'm going to take away from this conversation is like...

to expect the unexpected, that it really is like a privilege to be able to get and learn this kind of depth about people and understanding and getting to like literally study and read about case studies and patterns. And it's been beneficial for me and it sounds like for you too. And yeah, it's great, but.

At end of the day, I'm still very flawed. Still have all, still prone to the same things.

Julia Baum (51:04.687)

Yeah

Yeah, I think that's, that's also like something that's come out of this is just like that recognition that again, like we have so much in common with just like, where people everyone has like some commonality and yeah, like no one is on a pedestal and no one is beneath anyone else.

Sabrina (51:20.835)

Sabrina (51:24.386)

Yeah.

Sabrina (51:32.269)

Yes.

Sabrina (51:36.302)

I think that's a great place to end, actually. It's a great note to end. What do you think? Yeah, me too. I love that. All right, Julia. Good talking to you.

Julia Baum (51:40.636)

Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I like that. All right. So I'm there. Okay. Yeah, you too.

Okay, I hit stop.