Therapy in a Divided World: How Current Events Affect Us All

Transcript

Sabrina (00:02.286)
Okay, welcome back to Keeping Secrets with Julia Baum and Sabrina Trapper. Today we're gonna talk about how current events show up in the therapy room. And that's really what we're gonna be kind of focusing on, or it is what we're gonna focus on for today. Both how it affects us and especially our clients coming in and...

how that affects the therapy space in general. So yeah, any additions, is there anything that you'd like to add to that, Julia?

Julia Baum (00:40.645)
I'm excited to dive into this topic. I think it's, you know, more relevant than we all might think at times. And I think it comes up in very subtle, maybe even like ways that go unnoticed, as well as like very big topics that are very obvious and clear that can come up.

Sabrina (00:45.1)
Yeah.

Sabrina (00:53.901)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (01:08.523)
So yeah, think it's a big topic to just jump into.

Sabrina (01:09.719)
Yeah.

Sabrina (01:13.632)
It, Yeah, I'm excited. So on that note, I'm wondering, you you mentioned it shows up in all kinds of ways, small and big and everything in between. you think of, I'm wondering if you can think of some of the overarching themes and what you've seen, how does it tend to show up in your sessions?

Julia Baum (01:37.293)
Well, you know, starting from more subtle ways, I think just, you know, a lot of like even terms in contemporary culture or like music, movies, things that clients will reference. I always think that's interesting, like, because clients will kind of use examples through

Sabrina (01:51.457)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (02:07.372)
movies or books or, you know, and they'll say, you know, it's like, blah, blah, blah, in whatever movie, like, have you seen that movie? You know, and it's like, these little moments where, you know, the therapist has to navigate, am I going to self disclose? Have I seen this movie? You know, and it's like our training.

Sabrina (02:11.117)
Yeah.

Sabrina (02:18.07)
Yeah.

Sabrina (02:28.436)
Yeah!

Julia Baum (02:35.352)
was really to keep so much of that out. But I think just societal expectations have changed a lot since like you and I went to school, which was not that long ago. But I feel like we were taught a lot of like really old classic stuff that is maybe not that helpful anymore all the time.

Sabrina (02:41.056)
Yeah, it was.

Sabrina (02:53.25)
Yeah.

Sabrina (03:01.826)
I was.

was actually gonna say the same thing or bring that part up. So I'm curious to know if you can elaborate on that piece of it too, because I find the same thing. So Julia and I graduated with our masters as therapists over 10 years ago now, like 11, 12, something like that years ago. And although that's not in the grand scheme of things,

Julia Baum (03:28.524)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (03:34.751)
a huge amount of time. It's enough time that things in our culture at large have shifted. And there have been a lot of really like concentrated big world events such as the pandemic that have happened since, you know, and then stuff that sort of unfolded since the pandemic. So all of that, you know, it makes its way into our therapy room. Do you want to

Julia Baum (04:03.14)
For sure, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just, it's so, it's everywhere. It's everything. It's like from elections to, right, like the pandemic to like natural disasters that affect us. It all comes up, yeah. War, yeah, politics, just everything. And then all the way down to like reality TV and you know, like,

Sabrina (04:04.449)
Yeah

Sabrina (04:09.197)
Yeah.

Sabrina (04:13.134)
and

Sabrina (04:17.74)
Hmm?

and war also.

Sabrina (04:31.374)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (04:33.902)
fashion trends, you know, anything like skincare trends, like everything comes in and, it's, it's interesting because with our training, just, you know, when we were trained and like, you know, the generation of therapists that trained us and how they were trained and et cetera,

Sabrina (04:42.348)
Totally.

Sabrina (04:46.392)
Yeah.

Sabrina (05:00.899)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (05:03.008)
It wasn't completely to be a blank slate, but it was to be very, very discerning and really sparse in giving out much about ourselves. And that doesn't translate to what people are looking for in a therapist anymore.

Sabrina (05:20.482)
Yes.

Sabrina (05:28.306)
No, that's absolutely right. Like when I think about the way in which I was trained and the people that were training me back and my colleagues back in the day, the blank slate was, you know, was passe, so to speak already. Like it wasn't in favor anymore. Super like blank slate, just, you know, you're gonna be like a automaton or something. That wasn't in favor, but.

Julia Baum (05:54.756)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (05:57.633)
we definitely, self-disclosure was less, much less. And I don't think that they would be, I don't think that my school experience would be the same now if I went back or if I were to do it again today. What do you think?

Julia Baum (06:09.154)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (06:13.184)
I agree. think slash hope they're teaching things a little bit differently because I think, you know, we've seen over time that the relationship is even more important for therapeutic change than any certain technique or theory that you're working from. So you need to have that genuine

Sabrina (06:17.838)
Hahaha

Sabrina (06:22.574)
Yeah.

Sabrina (06:32.334)
and

Sabrina (06:38.317)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (06:43.172)
exchange with someone to really help them. I mean, you still have to be smart about it. And you don't, it's not supposed to be about you, but there is like an art to connecting with people and making it about them, but revealing something about yourself to kind of open that dialogue.

Sabrina (07:06.88)
Yeah, think I might have mentioned this in previous episodes too, is one thing that that makes me think of again is sort of like Brené Brown's vulnerability sort of like landmark study on vulnerability, right? Because before then, I remember thinking of vulnerability, especially in the 90s when I was growing up or I was teenager. That was kind of like,

Julia Baum (07:22.692)
Julia Baum (07:31.916)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (07:35.991)
It was out of favor in the sense that it wasn't, it was a sign of weakness, I think, overall. I think a lot of people in our culture or society didn't necessarily view vulnerability with as much grace as they do now, or even just embrace it at all. And I think what her research really did was illuminate that out of the relationships that

Julia Baum (07:54.102)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (08:02.334)
she had studied that were working and functioning really well are the people that tend to have the most fulfilling relationships are people that are able to be vulnerable and essentially appear risk appearing weak, so to speak, with the people that matter to them.

Julia Baum (08:18.158)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I interpret that also as just being genuine and sincere. You know, like being able to reveal something about yourself without shame. Yeah, so I think that comes up a lot with clients. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to think of examples, but...

Sabrina (08:28.269)
Yeah

Sabrina (08:36.492)
Yes.

Yeah.

Julia Baum (08:47.428)
I just, think like my mind is just flooded with examples of like, you know, sometimes clients will reference things that I have no idea about. And, and to them, it might be like really uncool or lame that I don't know about it, but I find it's much more helpful to just be like, I have no idea. Tell me about it. Yeah.

Sabrina (08:58.798)
You

Sabrina (09:05.378)
Yeah, same.

Sabrina (09:12.194)
Yeah, well, because that's real, that's genuine, you're doing that, you're risking kind of looking bad, so to speak, by just being real with them, so they can trust you more.

Julia Baum (09:21.62)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Or even looking back, because I do know something. I watch a lot of reality shows, as I have mentioned. So when a client references that, and I'm like, yeah, yep, I know about that. I mean, for all I know, they're like, she watches this crap? But I don't know.

Sabrina (09:33.23)
Same.

Sabrina (09:45.896)
yeah.

You'll probably like it.

Julia Baum (09:52.165)
There's like big things like I, one of the hardest days of my entire life as a therapist was the day after Donald Trump was elected for the first time. And all of my clients came in with very extreme feelings about it. And I had my own like really intense feelings about it.

Sabrina (10:07.298)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (10:21.112)
And it was like for the first time, I was going through like the same thing at the same time with my clients. And that was a totally new experience to navigate.

Sabrina (10:29.228)
Yeah

Sabrina (10:35.36)
I mean, I can totally relate to that. remember also going through the same thing. Yeah, and it was just kind of like, I felt sometimes like a deer caught in headlights because I was going into a session, I'd be like, well, you're expecting me to have wisdom about this? Like I'm kind of stuck and stumped myself. But then really, I think,

And this just took the experience of having gone through it. Otherwise I wouldn't have really fully known how to get through it, which is just like, I kind of had to listen much, much more than, know, and really kind of like, just be there. Because yeah, that's a moment where you could easily get confused and start talking yourself about stuff that you feel, but that's not necessarily.

Julia Baum (11:14.201)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (11:20.025)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (11:29.817)
Hmm.

Sabrina (11:32.334)
going to be helpful for them at all. So.

Julia Baum (11:34.349)
No. So yeah, I'm curious, know, politics are big topic. How do you navigate when you're talking to someone who does seem pretty aligned with your views and then like vice versa when they don't seem aligned with your views?

Sabrina (11:42.189)
Yeah.

Sabrina (11:49.336)
you

Sabrina (11:57.005)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (12:01.444)
Especially because these days clients kind of expect that sort of transparency quite often.

Sabrina (12:11.062)
Yeah, and I, you know, back to your point in the beginning, like 10 years ago or more than 10 years ago now when we were in school, that expectation was not a given, you know, it really wasn't, you know, political affiliation was not even like, it wasn't that big a deal yet. Well, it just wasn't talked about in my graduate education that much. Not to, yeah.

Julia Baum (12:23.416)
Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (12:37.718)
And I don't think the average like therapy seeker was like, thinking about political leanings that they are looking for in a therapist the way a lot of people do now.

Sabrina (12:47.49)
Yeah.

Sabrina (12:52.238)
Yeah, not in 2014 or whatever, or 2013. So that's a good question. How do I navigate that? And then I also want to hear your perspective. Well, I'll start with the easier one first, which is when people come in and they obviously kind of have similar, if not the same, sort of political leanings. I will say, as myself, I will say most of my clients, thankfully, I'm

Julia Baum (12:54.754)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (13:02.807)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (13:08.004)
you

Sabrina (13:21.678)
do consider myself a little bit lucky with this, tend to have similar or almost the same kind of thought process or political leanings as I do. So it's easier for me. That certainly makes it easier to see where they're coming from, what are their frustrations. But the flip side of that is that I sometimes also have to hold back and have actually once or twice maybe

Julia Baum (13:33.13)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (13:50.403)
blurted out my own frustration around, you know, something related to a political candidate or somebody in office or whatever.

Julia Baum (14:00.568)
Like when you assume that they have the same frustration.

Sabrina (14:06.803)
More like when I already know they have the same frustration. Yeah.

Julia Baum (14:09.12)
Okay, so if they're like complaining about someone or something, you'll like jump on board and be like, yeah, I hate that too.

Sabrina (14:18.326)
I, yeah, or like really emphatically. like, once I'm trying to come up with an example that's not going to give everything away. But like once I think I said something to the effect of like, yeah, I hope that person just, you know, never comes back kind of thing. It was just really, and, and, you know, in terms of our training, it was kind of inappropriate. I just kind of let it.

Julia Baum (14:20.109)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (14:27.168)
Hehehehehe

Julia Baum (14:37.7)
Mmm, that's really good.

Julia Baum (14:45.188)
Thank you.

Sabrina (14:46.51)
It's not that I let it, it kind of just popped out. And my client looked at me and just laughed because I don't usually do that. And I just kind of, I was thankful that they were laughing at it, but also mindful of the fact that like, oops, that was a little unprofessional.

Julia Baum (14:51.908)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Julia Baum (15:08.386)
Yeah, well, I guess it's like questionable. It's like, it's not advised. It's not like an identified intervention or anything. But it's like a genuine moment. And I'm sure like seeing your humanity was helpful in some way.

Sabrina (15:13.112)
Yeah.

Sabrina (15:22.252)
No.

Sabrina (15:26.967)
Yeah.

Sabrina (15:36.141)
I think you're right, it was because it definitely like that person knew I was on the same page and it was a moment almost where we, not almost where we were connected in that. Like they knew I felt the same just by my own like accident, you know?

Julia Baum (15:49.802)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm hmm. Right. Yeah, I mean, I guess. Yeah, it's also like worth asking, like, what are the risks of that?

Sabrina (16:06.126)
Yeah, that's a great point. And that's what I was thinking afterwards and sort of a little bit in between is, you know, it makes me think of counter-transference, which is like the therapist's fancy term for like when you get a little bit triggered by something and it a client is saying, triggered or just kind of like you lose objectivity a little bit for a moment or so. That's maybe a better way of putting it.

Julia Baum (16:28.184)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sabrina (16:33.068)
And that is exactly what happened. So the risk of that is that I'm not gonna be as present or that I wasn't in that moment, I wasn't as present. If I didn't catch myself and I had stayed in that frustration that just like allowed or that was, it just escaped my mouth in that moment, that I would not be as focused on,

Julia Baum (16:44.26)
Mmm.

Uh-huh.

Julia Baum (16:51.81)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (16:57.582)
What was this person ultimately struggling with? Well, they were struggling with, you know, a very real consequence of some of the political actions in office. And when we went a little deeper, figured out that like it was triggering because of a past family issue, kind of a, you know, it was sort of a, it ended up being like a reflection of like, or a familiar kind of reflection of like authority figures that in the past had not, you know,

Julia Baum (17:13.987)
Hmm.

Sabrina (17:25.74)
really done their job well or even harmed them. And that's what they were really triggered by. was sort of like, what does this represent, right?

Julia Baum (17:35.191)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (17:37.268)
If I hadn't gotten out of my own trigger, then I wouldn't have been able to help them see what was happening there. And that's a big risk with anything like that. So that's the first thing I can think of.

Julia Baum (17:40.877)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (17:50.053)
Mm hmm. I think that's a great point. Yeah, like, it has to be really measured and the therapist needs to be really self aware and aware of like, how is this impacting the therapy? And how is this? Yeah, impacting expectations or, you know, even like your

Sabrina (18:02.765)
Yeah.

Sabrina (18:06.637)
Yeah.

Sabrina (18:10.594)
Mm-hmm

Julia Baum (18:15.136)
ability to make a certain impact with this client, like, or, you know, a therapeutic impact because I don't know. Yeah. Like clients can start viewing the therapist differently or the therapist can have like different roles in their life as they learn things about this therapist.

Sabrina (18:31.372)
Yeah.

Sabrina (18:36.13)
Yeah.

Yeah, it actually, mean, on one hand, it's a positive in that it makes you more human, right? Like you're also affected by something that's deeply affecting like millions and millions of people, right? And like, so you're not a machine or a blank slate back in the Freudian days, right? But at the same time, does that affect your objectivity? I think that that's, correct me if I'm wrong, if that's what you're getting at, like are these, or, you know,

Julia Baum (18:50.008)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (18:55.202)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (19:07.342)
Is it affecting your objectivity or does it make you make the client feel like they need to protect you or like you're more of a friend to them than a therapist?

Julia Baum (19:16.399)
Well, I think that's a big consideration, right? I think certain information can impact different clients in different ways and change what your, like the meaning of the work or what you're saying. It can kind of change.

Sabrina (19:30.561)
Yeah.

Sabrina (19:39.521)
Mm-mm.

Julia Baum (19:43.767)
It's just like infinite, but to be aware that some of these things are not just like little blips in a conversation, but can have, oops, sorry, really deep impact on the process.

Sabrina (19:46.22)
Yeah!

Sabrina (19:54.894)
Hmm.

Sabrina (20:03.488)
Yeah, yeah, and I think that if I hadn't had like good solid supervision during that time and at the same time my own therapist to process whatever it was that I was dealing with in a parallel process to a lot of my clients, both those things really I think are what helped me stay in my role as a therapist with my clients and not become too like.

Julia Baum (20:21.848)
Yeah.

Sabrina (20:31.278)
chummy chummy, I'm your friend, I share the same views, et cetera, et cetera. It's a tight sort of, what's the word?

Julia Baum (20:35.496)
sorry.

Sabrina (20:44.768)
It's a small margin of error that could happen there. It's a bit of a tightrope that we're walking.

Julia Baum (20:47.38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So now how do you deal with situations where a client is talking from a very different point of view than you relate to, especially politically, I think, because that tends to be like really charged. And they're kind of looking...

Sabrina (21:09.912)
Thank you for.

Sabrina (21:15.182)
Yeah, that's a good one.

Julia Baum (21:17.398)
to you for, well, at least acceptance of their views, if not more. So, yeah. Right. Yeah.

Sabrina (21:27.958)
Yeah, if not more, yeah, like an endorsement almost of their views. Yeah, so, you know, an endorsement in general is not what we're after anyway, but people do, whether it's subconsciously or not, will kind of look for that or want some kind of, they'll feel good about it, but it's not what you should be giving anyway as a therapist. So what I do, what I have done,

Julia Baum (21:40.269)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (21:55.297)
And I have had times where I've had clients come in and they're pretty, their views on something current events wise is just totally different than what, like opposite even. And so what I have to do with those kinds of things is, or sessions is I do try to mentally prepare because I know that they're going to say some things that like, if I was speaking with a friend and a friend said that.

Julia Baum (22:05.422)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sabrina (22:24.204)
I would have a completely different response, you know, and I wouldn't, it might start a fight even, kind of, I mean, a fight is a conflict of some sort, right? So what I have to do is I prepare in advance and I literally put myself in a frame of mind of like, what would I do if I felt this way as well? And I just kind of keep coming back to that. What would I do if I felt this?

Julia Baum (22:31.126)
I feel like...

Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (22:51.35)
And I go back to kind of the basics of counseling, which is like, what is the end goal here? They're suffering because this is happening. There's some suffering because this person feels a certain way and what's happening in the world is not lining up. And so let me focus on it from that perspective. And then whatever sort of like my own feelings come up, which they do, and they always, you know, it's inevitable.

Julia Baum (22:58.315)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (23:05.443)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (23:08.759)
Yes.

Julia Baum (23:12.493)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (23:19.049)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (23:20.078)
I need to make a note of that, I will compartmentalize that until after the session. And if it stays with me, then I'll bring it to my own therapist or my consultant or my supervisor. What about you, Julia? How have you dealt with that?

Julia Baum (23:28.963)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah. Well.

Yeah, I think in a similar way, like, and I've had other people ask me this that like aren't in the profession and right, like your kind of personal reaction, like in your social life or something is so different because there's a different intention there than in the therapy room because my priority in the therapy room is to help

Sabrina (23:44.494)
haha

Sabrina (23:59.31)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (24:06.702)
that person like, yeah, move through the suffering, you know, find ways of coping or managing or, you know, overcoming or whatever, you know, it's their agenda that I'm behind and I support. So there's nothing in that plan that's about like changing their views on

Sabrina (24:12.439)
Yeah.

Sabrina (24:20.449)
Yeah.

Sabrina (24:35.128)
Great.

Julia Baum (24:35.78)
politics. That's not my goal. I honestly, in these dynamics, it doesn't matter to me. That's not really what I'm concerned with. I'm just concerned with their feelings, their thoughts, how they're dealing with it, and helping them get to a healthy place with something that's very, very challenging.

Sabrina (24:37.677)
Yeah.

Sabrina (24:49.23)
Yeah.

Sabrina (25:01.432)
Right.

Julia Baum (25:05.15)
And so that's where my energy is going. I like, I'm not driven at all to challenge like, how could you think that or, what about this? And, know, all of that, that you would do with a friend or family member or something, maybe.

Sabrina (25:11.395)
Yeah.

Sabrina (25:15.499)
Yeah.

Sabrina (25:20.002)
Right.

Sabrina (25:25.174)
Yeah, like you're not, you're expressly not trying to influence their opinion.

Julia Baum (25:31.137)
Yeah, no. if anything, if there's something I see as really self-destructive in their opinion, or really harmful to others or something, I might help bring some awareness to that. But it's still up to them if that's something that they have any interest in changing. It's not my objective to change it. So that's how I look at it.

Sabrina (25:58.616)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (26:00.182)
And in that way, it's like, it's really not that challenging. And like you said also just like that part of empathy and like, you know, seeing through this lens, your feelings are completely valid. And, you know, I understand that it makes total sense. Like what you're describing and you know, how you're taking this in and I get why you would feel that way. And so I'm just working with that, not like how

Sabrina (26:08.011)
Hmm.

Sabrina (26:15.415)
Yeah.

Sabrina (26:19.512)
Right.

Sabrina (26:25.336)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (26:29.961)
I feel through my lens.

Sabrina (26:32.514)
Right, and I think, so that brings me to another question for you. Also, I don't know if you've noticed this too, but I think in a lot of social work and just psychotherapy practices in general, there's a statement oftentimes veering into like political. There can be, know, clinicians out there that do veer into more of the political sort of realm.

Julia Baum (27:01.348)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (27:01.61)
in the service of like human rights, social justice and stuff like that. And, you know, I'll be honest, like I'm also interested in social justice and human rights. Like that is a value, a core value of mine. But I think in part because, you know, we were educated over a decade ago, it's kind of been drilled into me to like really separate that out. But I've seen some of the newer therapists kind of

Julia Baum (27:15.662)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (27:27.97)
Hmm.

Sabrina (27:31.038)
I'm really leaning into some of that and some of it to be honest Makes me feel a little uncomfortable I'm not saying that it's entirely wrong or maybe there's like a different way to look at it, but I don't know I've I Do there are certain times where I've seen like statements that I think Really very much speak to a very

Julia Baum (27:38.296)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (27:56.033)
Specific subpopulation and would make a lot of other people feel like this is not the place I want to go to for therapy at all So Yeah, see this is where I'm I'm actually struggling to kind of say this succinctly because There's like a part of me that doesn't want to offend So, I guess what I mean by that is like for instance there are

Julia Baum (28:04.714)
Okay, wait, can you be a little more specific?

Julia Baum (28:19.586)
Okay.

Sabrina (28:26.464)
I have heard, and I don't think this is the majority, but I've heard a lot of, not a lot, but some group private practices. For those of you who don't know, like a private practice is just a group of therapists generally that are therapists and they work from that group that will.

Julia Baum (28:47.726)
without like a tie to a hospital or some kind of major system.

Sabrina (28:52.588)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, without a tie to that. They're just, they're privately working for themselves. They will come out with like a political statement in response to like some something that has happened in the news recently. Or, you know, there's a lot of also and some of it is kind of gray too, where, you know, there I've seen a lot of like anti oppression is important. But specific, I think.

Julia Baum (29:06.7)
I see. Yeah.

Julia Baum (29:18.2)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (29:20.75)
When it veers into like political statements or sociopolitical sort of things that we weren't trained to do, I get a little wary of that. That's sort of what I mean.

Julia Baum (29:32.684)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Because my program, actually, my master's program was very centered around social justice. Yeah, but that's not really something I bring into my sessions.

Sabrina (29:46.22)
yeah?

Sabrina (29:57.209)
So can you talk to me or tell me how you made that distinction or how do you make that distinction seeing that that was actually a focus of your program?

Julia Baum (29:59.64)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (30:07.565)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, I mean, okay, so let's say I'm working with someone that in some way I can see as being like an oppressor or, you know, biases or, you know, racist attitudes or, you know, all kinds of things like that. My philosophy as a therapist is like,

Sabrina (30:30.86)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (30:40.48)
I have a relationship with this person to help them grow as a human being. like the steps they take to do that aren't really up to me. I don't take it as my responsibility to say like, well, number one, you need to clear out these racist attitudes or something, you know, like I think.

Sabrina (30:55.991)
Hmm.

Sabrina (31:06.35)
Yeah, but that's not easy to do in practice.

Julia Baum (31:10.696)
I think, yeah, I think that's their own journey. And if I'm looking at them as like the enemy to our society or something like that, then I'm not going to be able to have a functional therapeutic relationship with them. And I want to be there on whatever journey is going to lead to, you know, being there

Sabrina (31:24.024)
Right?

Sabrina (31:32.161)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (31:40.537)
best version of themselves. And it's just, it's not my decision what that is, or how far they get with it, or in what order of priority these changes should be made. So I just feel like my role is to kind of like support and be with them on the journey. And it but it's their journey, my prescribed path to

Sabrina (31:55.213)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (32:09.944)
betterhood.

Sabrina (32:11.83)
Right, and I think all of that is exactly, I feel like you said it really well, that's really what I aspire to as well, and I think a lot, if not most of us do, and by us I mean therapists, and people in society in general, in practice I think that becomes a lot more difficult, or can be much more difficult, because I think, for example, I'll give like,

I don't know, sort of an exaggerated example. If somebody comes in sort of talking in a way that is obviously racist towards a specific group of people or groups of people, that can be really hard to sit through, especially if you've been taught and have the value system within yourself that like,

Julia Baum (32:56.206)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (33:08.938)
It is cruel to say certain things about certain groups or to even, you know, to talk about certain groups in a certain way or whatever, right? How do you then separate that out from like, what part of this journey is gonna make them, like, how do you separate that out from the clinical goals? I have thoughts about that. I've dealt with that a little bit.

Julia Baum (33:17.56)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Julia Baum (33:32.398)
Yeah.

Sabrina (33:36.207)
I think my other question, my main question for you though is how was that addressed in your school? Because if that was a focus of your program, it wasn't exactly a focus of mine, but we definitely looked at social justice quite a bit and cultural oppression. I had a professor that specialized in that as well, thankfully. But yeah, how.

Julia Baum (33:50.818)
Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Baum (33:56.791)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the program, which I went to Fordham, by the way, for anyone who wants to know. But I don't think they didn't really teach us like how to navigate that in a one-on-one session. And I do think, wait, let me just say, yeah.

Sabrina (34:04.364)
Nice.

Sabrina (34:09.454)
hahahaha

Sabrina (34:15.734)
Yeah.

Sabrina (34:20.152)
Well, what did? Sorry. Okay.

Julia Baum (34:24.054)
I do think as a therapist, we have knowledge and the ability to bring that more to life in other contexts and settings. Like if you want to do more like group work or lectures or workshops or things where people elect to say, Hey, I'm interested in kind of tackling this issue.

Sabrina (34:39.672)
Hmm.

Sabrina (34:44.108)
Yeah.

Sabrina (34:49.549)
Right.

Julia Baum (34:50.882)
And then as a therapist who's educated in that, I think you can have a big impact. But I think in an individual therapy session, the client is always the central focus. It's not like, who is this client hurting? I mean, I care about that and I want them to be aware of it, but I'm not there to like,

Sabrina (35:15.874)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (35:19.044)
save the people this person is hurting. I'm there to help them recognize they are maybe hurting people and how do they feel about that and what do they want to do about it? Also, it's inevitable that they're hurting themselves with those attitudes also and helping them recognize how it's holding them back from their full potential. So it's like as an individual therapist,

Sabrina (35:22.293)
Right.

Sabrina (35:39.843)
Right.

Julia Baum (35:48.537)
I think it's just, it's always at the client and like, you can't get lost in like who they're abusing or something. Like you need to care about that, but that is not your primary issue to try to fix.

Sabrina (36:09.034)
And I love that you made that distinction, because I think that that's what people get confused with. it is a challenge, because if you have strong feelings about certain things, or if you're part of a group or a minority group of any kind, and you get a client, particularly a client that might be, like I'll give an example, if you have a client that comes in, if you're

Julia Baum (36:30.018)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (36:38.062)
part of the LGBTQ community and or QIA and a client comes in that's like homophobic, that may not be the best fit for you, you know, in terms of a client relationship. Yeah.

Julia Baum (36:48.548)
Yeah, you have to know yourself. can I manage my, my like personal reactions to this person to be their ally? Because that's what your role is.

Sabrina (36:59.629)
Right.

Yeah, exactly. And it's not that we're allied with their beliefs, it's that we're specifically focusing on their well-being and everything else is secondary to that.

Julia Baum (37:10.328)
No, yeah.

Julia Baum (37:17.888)
Exactly, right, because they need that type of dynamic in the therapeutic relationship to grow. And you need to be able to provide that as a therapist.

Sabrina (37:26.669)
Yeah.

Sabrina (37:33.087)
Yeah, it actually, you that makes me think of when I was in grad school, I had, we all were like trying to choose our internship sites. You remember that whole process? Yeah, it stressful. And there were a couple people in my cohort who, one or two, that actually ended up working with

Julia Baum (37:42.787)
Mm-hmm.

That's really crappy.

Sabrina (38:02.51)
a population of people that were sex offenders. And I remember like back then when I went into school, I was always thinking like, oh my God, no, I would never do that. I would never be the person that's gonna like support the people who abuse others. Oh my God. And it was really kind of like, it was a judgment, but it was also like a, it was a huge judgment, but it was also, I couldn't even understand or fathom.

Julia Baum (38:05.665)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (38:13.06)
Mm.

Julia Baum (38:23.403)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (38:31.532)
why you would want to do that. And I think I just didn't have like the maturity to really understand. After a while though, after I kind of, know, I always envisioned myself working with like people who have been victims of that. And I do still, but.

Julia Baum (38:32.568)
Mmm.

Julia Baum (38:47.157)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (38:49.876)
After they gave some case presentations and kind of described what they were working for, the thing that stuck out to me the most is that like 90 or 95 % of registered sex offenders themselves have also been sexually abused. And so they started off as victims themselves. Most people do not choose to be abusers of any kind. It comes from somewhere. That doesn't make it.

Julia Baum (39:10.916)
Mm-hmm.

Sabrina (39:17.696)
okay or appropriate, doesn't excuse their behavior, but to throw out an entire person or say that everything about them is bad, then you're not giving them a chance. And what if they can grow? What if they can be a better person and reintegrate into society? So I just remember like...

That was one of the first times I had been really challenged to think about that, because I was just, every time we would go into that supervision group with those therapists, I was like, how are you guys doing this? Like, how is it not messing with you or something? And it wasn't, were, I yeah, it was harder for some than others, but they were working with it.

Julia Baum (39:52.536)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (40:03.012)
Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that's a great lesson, you know, in just realizing that like no one can be defined by a thing they did or, you know, a certain trait or characteristic and, you know, just recognizing that someone's humanity is so much more complicated than you could ever see through

Sabrina (40:16.515)
Yeah.

Sabrina (40:29.879)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (40:31.04)
just a handful of information. And yeah, they're just as deserving of aspiring to be better as anyone else. Why should they be thrown away?

Sabrina (40:36.353)
Yeah.

Sabrina (40:50.476)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, nobody deserves to be thrown away. Everybody deserves a chance to better themselves and society around them. And I just didn't, I don't know, I just had trouble grasping that until further into the semester where I really like heard the case examples and was like, that makes sense now, you know? So yeah, I think we're coming close to the end. Yeah.

Julia Baum (41:15.001)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (41:19.876)
Yeah, we're of course out of time as we get into the juicier stuff as usual. anyway, yeah, just to circle back to like, how do current events come into play? It's almost like, when do they not?

Sabrina (41:26.126)
Hahahaha

Sabrina (41:44.911)
Yeah, especially these days with there's so much going on. Everybody is, you know, being triggered, for lack of a better word, left, right and center. Kind of forced to deal with it.

Julia Baum (41:52.322)
Mm-hmm.

Julia Baum (41:59.236)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're all kind of absorbing a lot of the same stuff and then coming together and, yeah, finding what is relevant there in the work and trying to leave out what isn't going to be helpful. And it's just like, yeah, this, this rainstorm has been awful. I'm like talking about that for five minutes.

Sabrina (42:23.055)
Ha

Sabrina (42:27.052)
Yeah, can we just like, my goodness. So, yeah, so Julia, also real quick before we finish up, I think you had mentioned also, well, we're gonna be going on a bit of a break until the spring, our podcast.

Julia Baum (42:28.82)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (42:37.698)
Yeah.

Julia Baum (42:43.86)
Mm hmm. Yes, we're taking a break from the full episodes. We'll be doing some shorter little things and throwing those out intermittently and then we'll come back to. Yeah. Yeah.

Sabrina (42:48.494)
Hmm?

Yep.

Sabrina (42:58.69)
Yeah. We'll come back in the spring to continue our full length episodes. But for the next couple of months, we're just taking a short little regrouping and we are looking forward to it when we do come back. until then, stay tuned because we'll be putting out some cool stuff as well. Just a little shorter.

Julia Baum (43:20.567)
Yeah. All right. Until then.

Sabrina (43:23.887)
All right, take care. Until next time, bye.