Summary
Sabrina and Julia unpack the green and red flags to watch for when choosing a therapist—emphasizing the value of consultation calls, clear qualifications, and cultural sensitivity. They dive into what makes a therapeutic relationship feel safe (but not too cozy), how to spot when something’s off, and why giving advice can be a slippery slope. Expect tangents, strong opinions, and a few laughs as they explore what really makes a good fit—and what doesn’t.
Takeaways
· Offering a free consultation call is a green flag.
· Communication compatibility is crucial for effective therapy.
· Therapists should be licensed in their state.
· Unlicensed practitioners can pose serious risks.
· Cultural sensitivity is important in therapy.
· Therapists should not give direct advice.
· Therapy is about helping clients discover their own solutions.
· Clients should take responsibility for their progress.
· Therapists should promote independence in their clients.
· Therapists are human and can make mistakes.
Sound Bites
· "Green flags in therapy are essential."
· "Communication compatibility is crucial."
· "Always check your therapist's license."
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Therapy Flags
03:53 Green Flags in Therapy
09:29 Red Flags in Therapy
13:59 Specialization and Expertise in Therapy
18:09 The Importance of Licensing
21:57 Horror Stories in Therapy
29:03 Understanding Misinterpretations in Therapy
30:27 Green Flags in Therapeutic Relationships
32:31 The Importance of Challenge in Therapy
35:08 Navigating Frustrations in Therapy
37:44 The Role of Advice in Therapy
40:30 Empowering Clients in Their Journey
43:08 Cultural Sensitivity in Therapy
49:03 Recognizing Red Flags in Therapy
51:42 Closing Thoughts on Therapeutic Relationships
Episode Transcript:
Sabrina (00:01)
Hello and welcome back. Today or this week, we're going to be talking about green flags and some red flags also when you're looking for a new therapist. And this really applies to anybody, whether you've looked for therapists, whether you have one already, or you want to check in and evaluate and see how you're feeling about your current therapist, or if you've never looked for a therapist before. And this will be a good episode to listen to.
So yeah, without further ado, before we get started we did want to mention or shout out a couple of comments that we got from our last episode on expectations of being a therapist versus reality. So Julia, I think there was one from Instagram that you were.
that you were gonna read out.
Julia Baum (00:51)
Yeah, we got a few from Instagram. There was one that really stood out to both of us. Someone who made a really good point, the account is verocity counseling coaching. And they had pointed out that the old school kind of very traditional blank slate approach from the therapist.
Sabrina (01:06)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Baum (01:17)
can at least these days be very triggering, especially for trauma survivors and feeling a sense of shame during very vulnerable moments in therapy where they're disclosing things that they've never shared before that might be a bit embarrassing or uncomfortable. And these days, people really are expecting a human response rather than a blink
Sabrina (01:25)
Yep.
Julia Baum (01:47)
wall and not getting that feedback can really trigger a sense of discomfort and embarrassment. And that's not really something we touched on last time. And I think that's a fantastic point.
Sabrina (02:04)
Yeah. honestly, we could do a whole episode on that. ⁓ again, thank you. And a shout out to, ⁓ Veracity counseling coaching. And, we unfortunately only have time to mention one more. got a lot of really great responses,
This one came from a comment on YouTube and this is a person who is also a therapist with their own therapy podcast. And this is coming from at the NY wellness. That's at the NY wellness. So NY as in New York. And this person commented on the idea of self-disclosure in therapy, meaning.
When therapists actually disclose a little bit about themselves, what he mentioned was that a lot of people nowadays, are really just wanting therapists to be real and just be themselves, just be like real down to earth human beings. And that is, kind of related to what our other comments have been. And I just thought that was a really great
observation because it's, it's been true in my, in my practice anyway. ⁓ so yeah, if you want to check out any of these, accounts, we've got the handles up here and for now I think we're good to go. So shall we transition?
Julia Baum (03:21)
Definitely. Yeah. So you and I have our own kind of personal thoughts on green flags when it comes to looking for a therapist from our own experiences, kind of.
Sabrina (03:30)
Yes.
Julia Baum (03:37)
being in this world, rubbing elbows with a lot of different therapists, seeing a lot of different marketing strategies. And so based on our experience, I think we have some unique perspectives on green flags and a few red flags that might not come up in most top 10 lists that you see out there.
Sabrina (03:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Baum (04:07)
online so I'm excited to dig into this.
Sabrina (04:09)
Yeah.
Yeah, me too. So is there anything that you want to start us off with? Because I've got a couple in mind. But yeah, if there's anything that's burning on your mind, let me know, Julia.
Julia Baum (04:26)
Oh,
gosh. OK, green flag number one, offering a free consultation call, I think, is an excellent first signal that a therapist is willing to take the time. They're not getting paid for this, but it's something that indicates the care about your time.
Sabrina (04:32)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Julia Baum (04:55)
getting the right fit, they understand that they can't help everyone and there's no presumption there that they're gonna be the right fit for you. They really wanna speak with you and hear what you have to say, what you need, see how you feel speaking to them. And I think that's really a sign of honoring that therapeutic relationship and understanding how important
Sabrina (05:13)
Yeah.
Julia Baum (05:24)
important it is in the process. I mean, there's so many studies that acknowledge that the relationship is 50 % of what goes into successful therapy. anyone who has the means of offering a consultation call and does,
Sabrina (05:39)
Yeah.
Julia Baum (05:48)
is in my book showing a lot of respect to any potential client.
Sabrina (05:55)
Yeah, and I want to second that this really applies, think, mostly to private practice, meaning therapists and clinicians that are in their own private practice, because we don't have as many constraints as...
the folks do who are working in like community mental health or inpatient, outpatient hospital settings. Sometimes those folks just don't even, they don't have the time or there isn't a setup for them to offer a free phone consultation or somebody else does the consultation and then they get stuck with a different therapist. For those people I think in private practice, I think when they don't offer a free,
consultation, it can be a sign of sort of a sense of arrogance a little bit in the sense of like, we can just, talk and work with absolutely anybody in anything, which is not really accurate it's not a wise assumption as a therapist. I think if you've gone through training or any kind of training, you know that
Julia Baum (06:55)
Yeah.
Sabrina (07:00)
There are certain things that you're naturally going to be better at working with or certain conditions. And also we all have different personalities too. So you're not going to gel with every single client. Like you said, you know, the relationship is the most important. So that's, that's gotta be prioritized.
Julia Baum (07:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's definitely an important distinction. I wouldn't judge a therapist working in community mental health or a hospital setting or really structured environments like that because they often don't have that option. They kind of have their day laid out by someone else and they don't necessarily get to say,
Sabrina (07:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Julia Baum (07:46)
I'm going to do something unpaid for the next 15 minutes. You know?
Sabrina (07:51)
Yeah. And
that's a good point too, because that's for, those of us in private practice, that's it's time out of our, our work day that we're not getting paid to do that too. Um, and for those in, in those highly structured environments, like they don't, they often don't have the resources to do that either. They're, you know, all the environments are very tightly controlled and there just isn't money to, um,
Julia Baum (08:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sabrina (08:19)
pay them for their time necessarily, so there's less freedom for them as well. But I think it's a little different, I think, in private practice.
Julia Baum (08:25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, and you're looking for not only the right fit for what you've been trained in and where your expertise lies, but it is also a personal fit and just kind of, yeah, having that harmony somehow. I mean, I had a consultation call a week or two ago and
Sabrina (08:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Julia Baum (08:59)
It's like we were just sort of speaking in different languages or something. Like they were asking me questions and I was answering them and kind of repeatedly they were like, I don't understand what you mean. And then I would explain it again in like a different way. And they'd be like, yeah, I still don't understand. And it's like,
Sabrina (09:05)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Julia Baum (09:28)
Okay, yeah, maybe we're just not that compatible, which is really good to know before sitting down for a 45-minute or 60-minute session and going through that for an hour instead of 15 minutes.
Sabrina (09:28)
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
Hahaha.
Every week.
Right, you know, that, I would imagine that would really be a big barrier too to making progress and change in therapy. I'm, go ahead.
Julia Baum (09:57)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
No, I was just going to say, I mean, it's a really good opportunity for them to say, all right, let me look for someone else that I get their communication style and vice versa. Because I was doing the best I could. And honestly, a lot of their questions were pretty typical. So I answer them a lot. And I tend to answer them.
Sabrina (10:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Julia Baum (10:26)
Pretty similarly, and usually people are like, ⁓ OK, get it. But if someone is just really not understanding me and I'm doing the best I can, that's just a good signal. This is fine. We don't have to work together.
Sabrina (10:28)
Yeah.
That's...
It's not going to. Yeah.
No, I mean, it's yeah, that wouldn't, that doesn't make a lot of sense to move forward. I'm really curious if you'd care to share, like, how did you end up navigating that consult?
Julia Baum (11:00)
Yeah, I mean, I did my best to explain from different angles. Ultimately, I think their concerns were up my alley. So I did say, if you do want to work together, I would be happy to have an initial session with you.
Sabrina (11:15)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Baum (11:25)
Because sometimes, you you figure these things out as you go. I just wanted to give them that option. I wasn't going to say like, well, clearly we're not understanding each other. So I don't think we should work together, but I think they made the right decision for themselves and I did not hear from them again. Yeah. Yeah.
Sabrina (11:30)
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, that makes sense. Well,
it sounds like you acknowledged, like it wasn't necessarily gonna be a terrible experience, but it's a red flag in a way where if you're really having trouble sort of understanding the person you're speaking with, that can feel really demoralizing if that's the person you're supposed to be opening up to. Like the communication has to be pretty solid.
Julia Baum (12:12)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's the whole thing. It's that. And then, you know, sometimes people will say something they're struggling with that I don't have any training in. And that that's kind of an easy, you know, like, I don't think I'm the right fit for you. I'm not going to be able to really get into that the way you deserve to get into that.
Sabrina (12:13)
So, I'm sorry, go ahead.
That's a good one.
Yeah.
And I think that's a really good point. It makes me wonder a little bit about, something that comes up a lot in the therapy field There isn't a lot of discussion or education around specialties in.
therapy in therapy school really as much as there is let's say in medical school. It's not as sometimes it's not as clearly defined either. Nevertheless, there really are certain things that need to be that it's better to send people to specialists for and there's like advanced training that postgraduate therapists will have to go through in order to understand how to treat that that kind of condition. For example, OCD, ADHD,
eating disorders, addiction, trauma. Am I missing anything else you can think of?
Julia Baum (13:37)
Those are some of big ones. And again, it also depends on the severity of the issue. I mean, we're all trained to have a basic background in all of this stuff. But if you're having really serious issues with one of these areas, you definitely want someone who's had additional training, or at the very least is under the supervision of someone who has that expertise.
Sabrina (13:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true too.
Julia Baum (14:06)
Which is very common because we all need to learn. And when you're training in this area, you're regularly consulting with that expert. And those people can do really good work too. But you just, you just want to kind of look for someone who probably has that expertise versus someone who has a general understanding who, who can help, but maybe only so far.
Sabrina (14:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. And again,
this isn't like a, you know, there's some nuance to this as well. It's not exactly the same as it would be, let's say, going to like, ⁓ I don't know, a bone specialist if you're, if you've got a disease related to the skeleton or your, or your tear bones, It's not, it's not exactly the same as that, but there, there's a similarity to it. And, and look, this is healthcare.
Julia Baum (14:52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sabrina (15:02)
You need to be trained. that brings me to one other green flag, red flag sort of thing. and this doesn't happen a ton, but I feel like I need to sort of call it out a little bit is, you should always, always look for somebody that has trained that is a trained therapist that is licensed in your state province, wherever. ⁓ because sometimes, ⁓ I've, I've heard
Julia Baum (15:24)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sabrina (15:30)
some horror stories. Yeah. What have you, yeah, what do you think?
Julia Baum (15:32)
Me too. Okay.
Years and years and years ago, I went on a date with someone, like an app date with someone that on their profile said they were a therapist. So was like, cool. And it turned out that they had no training or license or even a permit in therapy. They just decided.
Sabrina (15:46)
Huh.
Okay.
Ha ha!
Julia Baum (16:09)
They're going to market themselves as a therapist.
Sabrina (16:12)
but on a dating app?
Julia Baum (16:15)
Well, they
like, you know, when it says, what do you do or whatever, I'm a therapist. I was like, assuming this is a licensed therapist, but then in the conversation on the date, they told me they actually have no training at all. And they just, they felt like they have a knack for this and, they had clients.
Sabrina (16:18)
Yeah, right.
Yeah, it could.
Yeah.
What?
wow.
Julia Baum (16:43)
And it was so messed up because being that they're not registered in any way whatsoever with the state or anything, there is actually no regulation or like, there's like no penalty because they're not breaking anything that they've signed off on.
Sabrina (16:59)
No.
Well...
Well, no, I mean, so mental health counseling like our degree, clinical social work, psychology, those are all protected titles. if.
Julia Baum (17:18)
Right, but
I think you have to, and again, this is like an area I don't know exactly, but I think you have to actually be licensed and then perform some sort of malpractice or something to get in trouble. But if you have no license and you're not affiliated with any
Sabrina (17:37)
Yes, somebody has
Julia Baum (17:45)
governing body whatsoever, who is going to get you in trouble? Because you're not associated with anything.
Sabrina (17:45)
Right.
my God.
Julia, that's awful. I'm sorry.
Julia Baum (17:58)
I know it
was really messed up and I was just like, what? So that's my horror story. What horror stories do you have?
Sabrina (18:09)
⁓ my god.
I'm so curious, I just want to know how that day ended and like, if you remember.
Julia Baum (18:21)
I was so
like flummoxed and confused. It actually took me a little bit to process.
Sabrina (18:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Julia Baum (18:33)
How would you even think to do this? I mean, guess people fudge these things all the time. You might say, I'm a licensed contractor and you're really not, or I'm a licensed plumber and you're not, things like that. But I've never heard of a fake licensed there. I I don't think they ever said they were licensed, but they just promoted themselves as therapists. And so many people don't.
really know to check. I mean, you're not going to be like, well, what's your license number? I want to look it up. You know?
Sabrina (19:03)
Don't check. Yeah.
Well, so,
and that's, I think that's a big issue. Like you're right in that the only way that that person would have been able to, would the only way to put a stop to that with that person practicing without a license would be for someone to call a licensing board and say, you know, and then like which licensing board would that person call? Because what kind of therapists, there are so many kinds of therapists.
Julia Baum (19:32)
That's the thing.
don't know what they maybe you could send like a cease and desist or something, but I don't think you could really get in trouble
Sabrina (19:40)
I think you could because it is like, so I know for like, I'm a licensed mental health counselor, you are as well, or that's one of your licenses. If we were to call ourselves licensed mental health counselors without being registered, that's a, I don't know if it's a criminal offense, but it's punishable. Like we can't, we're not, by law, you're not allowed to like,
Julia Baum (19:51)
Yeah.
Okay.
Sabrina (20:07)
I can't call myself a psychologist because that's not my degree.
Julia Baum (20:10)
Right?
Maybe the fact that they were just saying therapist. It's like so vague.
Sabrina (20:18)
It is, but it's like this person's potentially putting people in danger because they don't have any, I mean, you can do harm if you're not trained and people do all the time. And that's, know, yeah. So just a shout out for folks here in case you're looking for therapists, these are some sort of outliers. They don't happen all the time. Yeah.
Julia Baum (20:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the only time I've ever
heard of it, but it's valuable to know you can actually look up your therapist's license.
Sabrina (20:55)
And people should be doing that, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah.
Julia Baum (20:58)
Yeah, you can check and see if their license is valid.
You can check and see if they have any, I don't know what you call it, like dings against your license, like probationary punishment or something. But anyway, yeah, you can go to the New York State Office of Professions and.
Sabrina (21:02)
Yeah.
your license. Yeah, what is it?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Baum (21:25)
find the search tool and anyway. So what are your horror stories?
Sabrina (21:29)
Yeah.
Yeah. So we can put a link to that below, but, so some of my horror stories, ⁓ I think, I mean, one, this isn't half as bad as yours. mean, I've just, I've seen a lot of people, ⁓ sort of leaning into like using misleading language to say that they're clinical therapists or therapists that can treat.
Julia Baum (21:35)
Yes.
Sabrina (21:59)
You know, they're not actually saying I can treat this or I can treat that or any kind of mental health issue, but the, um, the suggestion is there. And when you look into it a little bit further, you know, maybe they did like a very basic training in like, I don't know, conflict mediation or, um, or coaching or something like that. And coaching is also something that's not regulated by the state or, you whatever.
area you live in, it's not generally regulated. There's an international body right now that's, you know, I don't know much about it, but the point is that anybody can really call themselves a coach if they want to. There's no way to really enforce that. Whereas with us, it is a protected title and that, you know, can really, like there could be a case made for that person that you went on a date with. Anyway.
So that's not really a horror story, but I've seen a lot of people just kind of promoting themselves as sort of, and kind of doing therapeutic-like work that just isn't the same. I'm trying to think of something more specific.
Julia Baum (23:11)
Okay.
Sabrina (23:16)
Well, okay, so here's maybe a again, a slightly less out there, outlandish example.
No, I can't think of anything specifically that's as bad as yours. I'm sorry. Not in that way. I can think of others. Just not, just not in that way. but no, I, I'll, I'll give you another example of a different type of horror story. So I, yeah. So before I got post-graduate training in, trauma therapy, just to become like a trauma specialist.
Julia Baum (23:37)
⁓ huh. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Sabrina (23:54)
I was working at somebody else's clinic in New York. I had a consult call with someone, a very lovely client, who asked me if I'd be comfortable working with their type of trauma. And they were able to specify what it was. And given some of the placements that I had been in prior to that clinic,
I accrued hours after graduate school in a very heavily like trauma ties population in child welfare in New York. So just working with families and stuff like that, lots of trauma there. So I felt pretty comfortable in the sense that I had seen a lot of that already. And I told the individual, I'm not a trauma specialist, but I would be happy to see you and maybe we can talk through some of this and see, and then.
you know, if we hit a wall with it, I can refer you out. And so we had that discussion and they agreed and they came in and therapy was going well. But there were, you know, we did come to a point after a couple of months where it was like, you know, I think it would be better to refer you out.
⁓ and so I suggested at the time to for this person to seek out an EMDR therapist. now EMDR is a specific kind of therapy, very focused on trauma. so, and I wasn't trained in it at the time. So I.
didn't know who to find or who to look for. So I went I asked like one of my therapy colleagues if they knew someone and I got a recommendation and then I gave it to my client. Next week, my client comes back, says, I reached out to the person you you sent me to, and I was like, oh great, how did it go? And
my client asked the therapist a question about, you know, treatment length, a very typical question that people ask, how long do you think this will take? Something like that. And the therapist laughed and said, you know, I can't really give you an estimate, and to be fair, like, yeah, it's hard to give an estimate but it's also a fair question. Most people want to know.
Julia Baum (25:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sabrina (26:02)
You know? And so, yeah, go ahead. No.
Julia Baum (26:03)
Yeah. I mean, ⁓ sorry to interrupt, but like, this is
pure speculation, but what do you think the laugh was about?
Sabrina (26:16)
You know, I don't know because I wasn't there and I didn't know this therapist personally myself either. That's why, and I'll just say after that experience, I felt so bad that I always now do a little bit of research on who I'm referring people to. Not just a little bit of research, but I try to like talk to them in advance. And through the years I have built up a network, so I know some people.
Julia Baum (26:42)
Yeah.
Sabrina (26:43)
That was rough. Yeah, I think the laugh, you know, I don't know how my client was interpreting it, but I think the laugh might've been sort of a, ha ha, you think I can give you this answer, it's so silly that you're asking this question. That was the sense that I got from the description that my client gave.
Julia Baum (26:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sabrina (27:12)
Or it could have been a nervous laugh too. That's, that's, I don't know. Right?
Julia Baum (27:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that could
be like, gosh, they're putting me on the spot. They want a number. I don't know. I should know. And then kind of that nervous laugh or something.
Sabrina (27:28)
Yeah
But I don't think, I don't know, I felt like, trauma is sensitive. It's possible that my client may have taken it in a negative way, but it's also possible they didn't. So I never referred someone to that person again. Yeah.
Julia Baum (27:38)
Yeah.
That's also possible. That's also possible.
Yeah, no. I'm also thinking it could be burnout.
Like, I've heard this question a hundred times. I'm sick of answering it. That's also possible.
Sabrina (27:54)
Yeah.
That's a big pot. That's probably it. Or was probably it.
Julia Baum (28:06)
Yeah, okay, so
yeah, but yeah, I mean, a red flag, I would say is a therapist not taking genuine questions seriously.
Sabrina (28:22)
Yeah, I think that's a better way of putting it. Yeah.
Julia Baum (28:23)
Yeah. Yeah. Or I
mean, at least you need to feel like they're taking it seriously. And sometimes it is that rapport thing. maybe that laugh was coming from somewhere else, or maybe it wasn't even a full laugh. Maybe it was so like, huh, yeah. Or something that was like interpret. I mean, who knows? But that's why it's all about fit.
Sabrina (28:32)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, it is. And again, like people do sometimes misinterpret things, especially when you're talking about trauma. People are, you know, I know it wasn't easy for my client to reach out in the first place to either of us. you know, that, that didn't help though. Whatever the interaction was.
Julia Baum (28:53)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
No. Yeah.
And it is hard as a therapist to, I mean, it's true. Like things get misinterpreted all the time. I I have that happen in sessions with clients that I have a great relationship with. I can see on their face, it's not hitting in the way that I meant it. And we have to kind of process that.
Sabrina (29:28)
Yeah.
Yeah, same.
Right.
Julia Baum (29:45)
So it does happen all the time. anyway, yeah. Other green flags.
Sabrina (29:49)
Yeah.
Yes, let's go back to the good stuff. I was thinking about this before. Another, I think a really great green flag in general is when you do start, when you first start speaking with that person, that they just make you feel at ease or there's something about them that makes you feel not necessarily reassured, but that you could kind of get comfortable enough.
Julia Baum (29:58)
Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sabrina (30:26)
Maybe not to spill everything, you know, doesn't have to all come out at once, but just that they make you feel comfortable. think that's the first one.
Julia Baum (30:33)
Yeah, yeah, and
it's a special kind of relationship where you want to feel safe and cared for and they truly are there to support your well-being. But I think it's also important that you feel that they're going to challenge you a little bit and they're not going to just agree with every single thing you say and
Sabrina (30:47)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
That's a good point.
Julia Baum (31:02)
you know, make you seem like you're always right and everyone else is always wrong because that can actually make things worse. So, yeah, I think you want someone that you know, like, OK, if they're going to push a little against something I'm saying, it's because they believe it's going to be helpful to me and I trust them enough.
Sabrina (31:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julia Baum (31:31)
to be there for that.
Sabrina (31:34)
Yeah. And I, that's a great point. think anybody going into therapy for the first, second, third, whatever, however many times, you want to be challenged. should, you know, you should be trying to look for somebody that can poke a little bit at, at some of the defense mechanisms that we've all built up, you know, otherwise you won't make progress.
Julia Baum (31:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Right, like you don't want just like an expensive friend that's going to be like, my gosh, you're so right. That was so awful for them to do that to you. mean, like you want their support, but you want them to be able to point out like some different perspectives, challenge your.
Sabrina (32:23)
Yeah.
Julia Baum (32:25)
thought process a little and not to say you're wrong or anything, but just to say, what if we entertain some different perspectives and, you know, yeah, yeah.
Sabrina (32:34)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And
again, to be fair, it should always be coming from a compassionate place, compassion doesn't mean push over either.
Julia Baum (32:42)
Exactly. Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah, it's kind of like a sports coach or something like, or an art critic. Like you don't want someone that's going to be like, that's amazing. That's beautiful all the time. Like you want someone to be like, I think actually this area could use some improvement, you know?
Sabrina (32:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. And I think, I think a lot of people sometimes, or some people come in with a different conception of what that means, you know, to be pushed or challenged. And, some people come in saying, you know, I really want to be challenged in the past, I haven't been. And then they come in and it's like, actually, this is, it's actually a little harder to, to challenge this person because they're pushing back a lot. And, and
Julia Baum (33:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sabrina (33:34)
It's interesting that way. That's just from the therapist perspective though, but.
Julia Baum (33:36)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I don't know where to give credit for this, but I've heard many times, and I think this is true, that any really good therapeutic relationship includes at least one moment where the therapist is frustrated with the client and the client is frustrated with the therapist. Might not be at the same moment.
Sabrina (34:06)
Hmmmm
Julia Baum (34:07)
But that's really the signal of a genuine relationship.
Sabrina (34:12)
That's a good point.
Julia Baum (34:14)
What other relationship
exists in life where there is zero frustration with the other person? And if there isn't, I think that is at least a yellow flag. It's like, what are we doing? Are we just both people pleasing here and not getting to the tough stuff?
Sabrina (34:23)
Like none.
Yeah.
Probably.
I think I've heard some version of that in my own consultation, but I don't know, just the way you put it was, I think, really excellent, which is that, you you're going to piss off each other. You're going to piss each other off at some point. And it's okay.
Julia Baum (34:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, because I mean, yeah, when you're trying to change,
like as the client, there's things that you've held onto that have in some way kept you safe and comfortable. And when someone is trying to encourage you to step away from that, you're going to be like, fuck you. Like, I like this. This is working for me. You know?
Sabrina (35:21)
Yeah, no, I think
that's a great point, Julia. You know, and it's funny because it's like, this is sort of the dance that we do all day, I think, is sort of how do we push just far enough so that people are gonna be okay with it and maybe not, you totally flooded as that's maybe a more trauma therapy to specific word, but also, you know, they're not gonna be comfortable.
because they shouldn't be comfortable completely.
Julia Baum (35:50)
Mm-hmm. No, it shouldn't be
comfortable all the time, but you should feel like you're with someone who wants the best for you and wants you to get where you're trying to go. Yeah.
Sabrina (36:01)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I think that is a great, great point. So definitely therapist green flag is somebody that will push you. ⁓ you know, of course, respectfully, but we'll definitely push you.
Julia Baum (36:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that's a really good distinction. It's not a good sign when someone is pushing you hard and it feels like too. I mean, you have to be honest about what is too much, really. But someone that's going to say, like, you need to do this or really, yeah.
Sabrina (36:34)
Hehehe
Well, yeah. So
that actually makes me think of an example. I had a client years ago that came in. Actually, I've had a lot of clients over the years come in and sort of mention some really kind of eyebrow raising behaviors of previous clinicians. Not always, but every once in a while, you know, I hear these stories. And one of them was just kind of saying that
it seemed like the previous clinician they were with, was really giving them a lot of advice in the sense of, I think you should do this. I don't think that that's a good decision for you kind of thing. For those of you who don't know, we're trained not to give advice, so to speak, right? And I'm putting that in air quotes because, it's
complicated. It's not super black and white. But yeah, we're not supposed to give advice. We're supposed to help you find your way. That's really the point of therapy is for you to come into your own. And, let's dismantle some of those maladaptive coping skills, but if it's for you to figure out your path. And, so if you hear a therapist,
Julia Baum (37:43)
Hmm.
Hmm?
Sabrina (37:59)
saying in no uncertain terms, I think this is a bad idea unless it's something related to safety, like addiction or where it's likely to be re-traumatizing for somebody Otherwise, I don't know. That's not a good idea.
Julia Baum (38:16)
Yeah.
And I think that's a really good point because it's pretty common that people assume that is the role of a therapist to give advice. I, yeah, I hear that all the time in consultation calls when I say like, what are you looking for? And they'll say, I'm looking for advice. I'm looking for objective advice.
Sabrina (38:31)
Yeah, those who are new to therapy, yeah.
Julia Baum (38:43)
I want someone to tell me what I should do, things like that, because that does happen a lot on TV and movies and stuff. And it's very appealing to think I can pay a professional advice giver and they'll give me the right direction. But actually it's not a good sign when a therapist
Sabrina (38:58)
Yeah.
Julia Baum (39:09)
giving advice because they're skipping over the work. They're skipping over helping you remove the blocks in the way of your own inner wisdom and your own authenticity. And what a therapist thinks you should do is just based on their own life experience and their own values, which are very different than yours. And it's kind of the
Sabrina (39:21)
Yeah.
Julia Baum (39:36)
easiest thing to do, but the least helpful thing to do.
Sabrina (39:42)
I think that's a really excellent point That is, it's the easiest thing for the person on the other side to say, I think you should just do this. Like just do it this way. Whereas, for instance, ADHD coaching, which is different than ADHD therapy
where there are behavioral exercises and then you're just you're going through like a program and you're saying okay this is this is the plan we're going to set it up like this that's different that's not advice giving that's not i don't think you should i don't know date this person or go to this doctor or go to this school or something yeah yeah that's really unethical actually
Julia Baum (40:14)
Yeah. Yeah. I think you should break up. I think you should get a divorce, things like that. But I think it,
yeah. But something like, I think it might be helpful if you read this book. I think it might be helpful if you do this worksheet. Something like that. Yes.
Sabrina (40:35)
Yeah, that's different. But that's
what that falls in line with what you were describing earlier. that's not advice. that's a therapeutic tool. I think this could be helpful. Would you like to do this? And I mean, I'm never, we're never going to be forcing our clients to do something. They're just not going to do it. And that's they're their own person. ⁓ but yeah, we can say, I think it would be helpful to try journaling, see if you like it or try this or try that.
Julia Baum (40:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sabrina (41:02)
but not tell them a major life decision or something like that.
Julia Baum (41:07)
Yeah, and I've definitely heard about that too. I've heard of clients saying, ⁓ my couples therapist said they think we should separate. And it's not like there was violence or anything unsafe going on. It's like.
Sabrina (41:11)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Julia Baum (41:33)
I would never say that because it's your life and we don't know the outcome of you staying together or you separating. mean.
Sabrina (41:33)
Yeah!
Yeah.
No, we're not all seeing all, you know, like omnipotent or whatever. it's not a good sign. That's a red flag for sure.
Julia Baum (41:46)
Yeah.
Yeah. So I think a lot of this stuff is pretty nuanced. Even when we say, it's a bad sign when therapist tells you what to do, it's like, what are they telling you to do? And hopefully, it's always open-ended. You might want to consider this. Would you like to try this? I think another green flag is that they're always putting
Sabrina (41:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it-
Yeah.
Yeah.
Julia Baum (42:22)
the responsibility for progress in your hands. Like, you know, how much work do you want to do? How much effort do you want to put in between sessions? Okay, whatever that is, that's fine. You know, that's just your decision. That's going to be your journey.
Sabrina (42:26)
Mmm, that's a good one.
Hmm.
Can you say just a little more, you know, I'm using a very therapist type phrasing here, but can you expand on that a little bit and just tell us more like, what do you mean by that? Yeah.
Julia Baum (42:45)
Hehehehehe
Mm-hmm.
Well, I like to process with people, yeah, like what are you expecting to get out of this? What do you see as your role in getting there? What do you see as my role in getting there? And yeah, just getting really clear on who's responsible for what. And I do always like to point out that
I mean, for me, the therapy sessions are 45 minutes. So that's 45 minutes of work a week with me. And how much more do you want to do on top of that? Cause when you think about like how many hours in a week, you know, how much do you want to capitalize on that? And what are you expecting to get out of what you're putting into it?
Sabrina (43:36)
Hmm.
Yeah. And I think that's an important distinction to make too, because like you, I've had, a lot of clients and it's, it's understandable. A lot of people will come in, especially if they're in pain or they're struggling. Sort of wanting answers, understandably wanting answers. think sometimes it can become habitual though, to go in and say, or like a sign of like, well, this is a person of authority, the therapist. So they should be telling me it's.
Julia Baum (44:06)
Yeah.
Sabrina (44:18)
it's really more about, again, teaching somebody to do it themselves and trying to break down what might be going on to prevent that. And, and what is happening that there, there may not be motivation you know, or that the motivation is not exactly there, or is there a lack of confidence in their own judgment, you know, and that's a whole other thing to work on.
Julia Baum (44:24)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, because our role is to help people take responsibility for their own emotional well-being. And it's really unethical to promote a reliance on us. You want someone to feel like eventually they could kind of be their own therapist. They understand a bit more about how to help themselves.
Sabrina (44:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Julia Baum (45:13)
So we're always trying to promote that.
Sabrina (45:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I do want to, again, this is not perfectly black and white either. There's nuance. I do want to add that, you know, also for some people, it's, it's okay to be in therapy for a really long time too. And for a lot of people actually.
Julia Baum (45:30)
For sure, for sure. And yeah,
it depends on your kind of attitude towards it. Like I have a lot of clients that are in therapy long term and they kind of view it more like going to the gym where it's like a support system, but it's not something that they're like.
Sabrina (45:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Julia Baum (45:53)
Okay, I'm not going to think about or process anything that's bothering me until I get to therapy and I'm going to dump it all out and then I'm going to shut it down for the rest of the week.
Sabrina (46:03)
Right, right. And that's a big difference though in outlook. And also there are some people that could use that support or just sort of a place to go to to sort of maintain some of the gains that they've made. But I don't believe, yeah, I also don't believe necessarily in staying in therapy for your entire life. That's not a necessity.
Julia Baum (46:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Mm-hmm.
Sabrina (46:33)
it happens, but you know, it's also okay to take breaks.
Julia Baum (46:37)
Yeah,
I think it's appropriate to go to therapy for as long as it's helpful. And sometimes like overstaying that, then it becomes unhelpful at a certain point. And that point could be anywhere from a few months to a decade.
Sabrina (46:52)
Yeah.
Julia Baum (47:02)
or two decades, you know, there's no set time. You just have to be honest with yourself. But
Sabrina (47:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
and have a discussion with your therapist too. Flesh out.
Julia Baum (47:13)
Yeah.
So, ooh, that's another red flag, I think, is therapists that just kind of want to keep their clients forever, regardless of how they're doing.
Sabrina (47:19)
What's that?
Yeah, I think we were definitely alluding to that in terms of that green flag. Yes, no, but there are a lot, there are some therapists out there that don't think as much about closure and about like, what is it like to have this person go out on their own? And they'll promote, like you said, that reliance on them, which is not...
Julia Baum (47:32)
⁓ huh.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's serving the therapist, not the client.
Sabrina (47:55)
healthy, you know.
I think that's a really great point, yeah.
Julia Baum (48:03)
Yeah. So I think a lot of these things take like very fine tuned observation to pick up because they're so nuanced. But, yeah, these are just some of the things off the top of our head that through observation, hearing from clients about their past experiences, talking to other therapists, all that stuff.
Sabrina (48:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Julia Baum (48:31)
So.
Sabrina (48:32)
want to mention just one last one and then maybe we can wrap it up for this week. your therapist should also have a certain level of cultural sensitivity in the sense of like, you know, if you want to see a therapist and you're okay with them being of a different
Julia Baum (48:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sabrina (48:49)
it's sort of identity, background, culture, race, religion, anything like that, or gender, it's okay to have a preference for what kind of therapist you want to have. And if you don't really have much of a preference, it's also okay to ask, how do you feel about working with
people from the trans community or people from, you know, whatever kind of, minority background or from a cultural background that maybe, ⁓ you're not from something like that. So these are also green flags in the sense of like, when you speak to that practitioner, do they seem comfortable with who you identify as?
Do they seem prepared to kind of, you know, do you feel comfortable with their knowledge of, of your background?
Julia Baum (49:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sometimes you can kind of hear it in the undertone of someone's answer, you know? Because, I mean, remember, like, any therapist in private practice is in business and they make money by seeing clients. So
Sabrina (49:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Julia Baum (50:07)
I'm sure like 99.9 % really do want to be ethical and help people and they don't want to take away from what someone can get out of the process. But yeah, when you're searching for a therapist, of course you want to have your eyes and ears open. And I think a lot of it comes from really looking at someone's website.
Sabrina (50:16)
Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Julia Baum (50:38)
considering how they respond when you reach out, like, you know, what kind of response you get if you're having a consultation call, how that feels and how that's going, how the first handful of sessions are going and even ongoing, you know, ⁓ to just be discerning.
Sabrina (50:42)
Yeah?
Yeah,
And yeah, on that note, I think this is probably a good place to wrap up. Any other thoughts, that you want to mention before we do?
Julia Baum (51:10)
Yeah, again, I would be curious if anyone listening would like to share some experiences they've had, like signs they saw early on that their therapist was going to be a good fit, or maybe signs they saw that in hindsight were warning signs or things like that.
Sabrina (51:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep.
Julia Baum (51:37)
Yeah, I'd be curious. if anyone has something like that to share, just respond wherever you are listening to this podcast or even respond on our Instagram page. Yeah, YouTube, Spotify, wherever. Just leave a comment. yeah, what about you, Sabrina?
Sabrina (51:52)
Or you too.
Yeah.
Yeah, same. think I'd love to hear just reflections and any thought. If any of what we said resonated or if you've had some interesting experiences that you'd like to share, we would love to listen and to hear them. Yeah.
Julia Baum (52:20)
Yeah, yeah. And
all therapists are human. None of us are perfect. We've all made mistakes at some point in all these areas, intentionally or not. I mean, usually not intentionally. But this is also an interesting thing for us to learn from any of the comments. It's helpful for us too.
Sabrina (52:28)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, so thank you for listening and until next time. Bye.
Julia Baum (52:51)
Yeah, bye everyone.